#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

I'd just to like to make it clear again, because I feel as if my point is getting misinterpreted as "Dungeons should be easy and healers should have nothing to do" No, my point is that they're currently designed to be easy, so it's not a surprise that you can run it without a healer or tank pretty easily. Saying healer isn't useful in dungeon content! is not a argument for why healer is poorly designed, it's that every job tanks included feels bored during a dungeon, your point about tanks not really needing to need mitigation for tank busters is something I don't fully disagree with at least in later dungeons, apart of that has to do with item level synch (this is a massive reason why dungeons feel super easy, that never gets brought up) and apart of that does have to do with tanks passive built in 20% mitigation and higher hp.

I'm not a fan of the strict trinity system in ff14 at the same time, it's very basic and boring to have dps "do damage no utility" healer "heal" tank "aggro" the problem is if you want the "trinity fantasy" it ends up hurting job design and variety such as paladin's having access to some healing skills wouldn't be allowed in a system that was strict enough and enforced the trinity system 100%, in a strict Trinity formular every tank and healer bring the same thing on the table because they become designed to only do one thing. I do not like strict trinity systems, I enjoy more adaptive trinity systems.

My personal thoughts are that dungeons should be more difficult but not to a drastic point where it makes new players struggle, I think a part of that is fixing item level synching, toning down some mitigation values on tanks (and things like bloodwhetting aoe healing the warrior to full every 25s), but at the same time I also think runs without healers or tanks In casual content is fine to a extent.

[PyurBlue]

I'm not a fan of the strict trinity system in ff14 at the same time, it's very basic and boring to have dps "do damage no utility" healer "heal" tank "aggro" the problem is if you want the "trinity fantasy" it ends up hurting job design and variety such as paladin's having access to some healing skills wouldn't be allowed in a system that was strict enough and enforced the trinity system 100%, in a strict Trinity formular every tank and healer bring the same thing on the table because they become designed to only do one thing. I do not like strict trinity systems, I enjoy more adaptive trinity systems.

I don't have strong feelings for a rigid trinity system itself, but it is pretty core to what FF14 is supposed to be and I think it can work if the content is designed properly. Roles also don't have to impose strict limitations on class skills or abilities. The important part of balancing is making sure that every role has a purpose. Tanks and DPS can heal, they just can't have the ability to keep the entire party alive indefinitely. Healers can have shields and mitigation but these things can't be available constantly and shouldn't be able to overcome every possible instance of damage. The trinity isn't at odds PLD having heals, it's at odds with PLD having high uptime regen on top of baked in self healing on top of being able to fallback on a relatively low cost semi-party heal. The healers need to be the best at healing and there needs to be some amount of healing for them to address. SE forgot this somewhere along the game's evolution.

My personal thoughts are that dungeons should be more difficult but not to a drastic point where it makes new players struggle, I think a part of that is fixing item level synching, toning down some mitigation values on tanks (and things like bloodwhetting aoe healing the warrior to full every 25s), but at the same time I also think runs without healers or tanks In casual content is fine to a extent.

Dungeons clearly aren't meant to be this game's challenge content, that's true. However at this point gameplay has been almost thrown out the window other than keeping up your damage rotation. That's what needs to be undone. I think SE sees dungeons and roulettes as nothing more than a treadmill that players don't care about beyond what they get out of their time investment. This lead to streamlining and more streamlining until there wasn't really anything left to streamline. Content should be fun for its own sake. I see that as the first rule of game design. Unless dungeons are built with that in mind they will remain mediocre.

How to make dungeons fun without excluding casual players is another question but I think it's possible to do. Using the tank example above, we can leave damage as it is now but give bosses reactions to the amount of damage dealt. So for example if an attack deals about 50% of HP damage to a player the boss could get a buff that increases its own damage and lowers its cooldowns, maybe throw in a low chance to repeat the previous attack. This creates an incentive to heal and mitigate (prevent the 50% damage threshold) while still providing room for mistakes like forgetting to mitigate without letting that mistake go unpunished if it's made repeatedly.

[Supersnow845]

I'd just to like to make it clear again, because I feel as if my point is getting misinterpreted as "Dungeons should be easy and healers should have nothing to do" No, my point is that they're currently designed to be easy, so it's not a surprise that you can run it without a healer or tank pretty easily. Saying healer isn't useful in dungeon content! is not a argument for why healer is poorly designed, it's that every job tanks included feels bored during a dungeon, your point about tanks not really needing to need mitigation for tank busters is something I don't fully disagree with at least in later dungeons, apart of that has to do with item level synch (this is a massive reason why dungeons feel super easy, that never gets brought up) and apart of that does have to do with tanks passive built in 20% mitigation and higher hp.

I'm not a fan of the strict trinity system in ff14 at the same time, it's very basic and boring to have dps "do damage no utility" healer "heal" tank "aggro" the problem is if you want the "trinity fantasy" it ends up hurting job design and variety such as paladin's having access to some healing skills wouldn't be allowed in a system that was strict enough and enforced the trinity system 100%, in a strict Trinity formular every tank and healer bring the same thing on the table because they become designed to only do one thing. I do not like strict trinity systems, I enjoy more adaptive trinity systems.

My personal thoughts are that dungeons should be more difficult but not to a drastic point where it makes new players struggle, I think a part of that is fixing item level synching, toning down some mitigation values on tanks (and things like bloodwhetting aoe healing the warrior to full every 25s), but at the same time I also think runs without healers or tanks In casual content is fine to a extent.

That’s the thing I think you are missing though

“All roles feel boring in dungeon content”

while that may be true depending on your perspective (I don’t agree with it but I can see why others think that) that alone is not justification for the level of role encroachment that tanks exhibit on healers. Sure completely deleting tank sustain from the game wouldn’t “fix” healers but it would certainly actually allow them to heal more often.

The problem (which is ironically usually leveraged at the healerless ultimate clears) is that the vast majority of people interact with this game via the roulettes and right now tank overreach in the roulettes is excessively high (which is neither here nor there in the front of allowing clears without a particular role as this was possible in SB when we still had a trinity)

Not liking the trinity is fine but whole the game harshly enforces the trinity it’s also not an argument for why one particular role should be de-emphasised in the trinity

[Rithy255]

That’s the thing I think you are missing though

“All roles feel boring in dungeon content”

while that may be true depending on your perspective (I don’t agree with it but I can see why others think that) that alone is not justification for the level of role encroachment that tanks exhibit on healers. Sure completely deleting tank sustain from the game wouldn’t “fix” healers but it would certainly actually allow them to heal more often.

The problem (which is ironically usually leveraged at the healerless ultimate clears) is that the vast majority of people interact with this game via the roulettes and right now tank overreach in the roulettes is excessively high (which is neither here nor there in the front of allowing clears without a particular role as this was possible in SB when we still had a trinity)

Not liking the trinity is fine but whole the game harshly enforces the trinity it’s also not an argument for why one particular role should be de-emphasised in the trinity

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

If you actually compared the healing output healers have vs any tank, then you'd realise that Healers beat tanks at healing by a mile, it's not a contest, your problem is that very little healing can get you through a ultimate, so you can just go 4 paladins, with 4 dps who have healing utilities (or 2 plds 1 war in TOP), If healers were actually required to use their full kits (which they should) then you wouldn't be able to replace all healers with tanks like you would now, sure you can do that by also just removing all healing from non healers but I don't see how this makes healer fun? it's just forcing you to use it without solving how little healing you need to do.

You say the game enforces trinity but also has systems in place where you don't have to always use the trinity system, sure it's there as a guideline and enforced to a degree but I don't think a strict trinity system will work for this game, at least I think we should evolve past the baseline idea of the trinity system "tank aggro" "dps do dmg no utility" "healer heal" it' leads to very boring job design where tanks can't really be varied nor can healers be varied, theirs only so many ways a job can actually do it's job that's in a unique way.

[Aravell]

But Stormblood also marked the beginning of the tank power creep. As a DRK I could soak up entire tankbusters with TBN and suddenly in ShB all tanks could to that. And it got even worse with EW.

Back in the day I have learned to pre-cast my heals for tank busters, today that mechanic is entirely gone from healer gameplay. I throw in a Benison for good measure, but tanks deal with busters alone these days.

I wouldn't call that tank power creep, more like tank specialisations.

DRK could zero out a lot of singular damage sources, but they were weak in sustain against a single target and would eventually die without a dedicated healer.
WAR had strong heals and mitigation, but half their defensive kit was locked behind a -20% damage stance which also locked them out of their strongest attack.
PLD was sturdy for a longer period of time through their extra defensives and passive block, but their damage was lower and Clemency costs them damage to use.

So we had a tank that was strong against busters but weak on overall sustain, a tank that was strong in self-healing and defensives but ended up ping-ponging their HP bar in practice, and a tank that's generally sturdy with good support but doesn't contribute as much to killing the boss. I'd say they still has solid identities and weaknesses back then. ShB did ruin that balance by removing weaknesses from the tanks though.

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

While I agree that tanks could keep their self-healing, I think tanks should in no case have dedicated targetted party healing for free.

Stuff like Divine Veil is fine, it's just 1 instance of heal on a decent cooldown. Clemency is also fine because it cuts into your damage to use it. Stuff like Nascent Flash is not fine as it costs nothing to use and is also too strong, I think free targetted healing should stay firmly in the territory of healers and no one else.

[Rithy255]

While I agree that tanks could keep their self-healing, I think tanks should in no case have dedicated targetted party healing for free.

Stuff like Divine Veil is fine, it's just 1 instance of heal on a decent cooldown. Clemency is also fine because it cuts into your damage to use it. Stuff like Nascent Flash is not fine as it costs nothing to use and is also too strong, I think free targetted healing should stay firmly in the territory of healers and no one else.

I disagree to a extent that tanks shouldn't have targeted healing, though I think in a lot of the cases tanks target healing tools are a bit too strong.

Nascent flash being the most egregious example as its 1600 healing, that is doubled due to targeting both the warrior and their target this is of course in addition to warrior having a bunch of healing defensives that make it a clear example of where a tank is taking sustain too far, I think Gunbreakers excog is also a bit too strong in potency and aurora didn't need to be buffed but was fine before so. My issue with paladins self healing is more the selfish holyspirit/blade combo healing more then anything I don't really have a issue with the regen on Sheltron. I think if one limited target self heal can

My main issue with current tanks defensives is the stacked mitigation, I much rather we remove the double mits on a lot of them (15%+15%) and maybe make some of the healing aspects tied to them weaker But I don't think target healing needs to be fully removed.

[Supersnow845]

I've said i think tank mitigation values are a issue into why healers don't actually need to heal much, I do not think sustain is even close to the issue, Taking away tank self heals and team healing is just removing more stuff from tanks to make healers feel good about themselves, it doesn't actually fix any of the core issues, I don't know why you are so insistent that making tanks worse will be your magical fix to healers.

If you actually compared the healing output healers have vs any tank, then you'd realise that Healers beat tanks at healing by a mile, it's not a contest, your problem is that very little healing can get you through a ultimate, so you can just go 4 paladins, with 4 dps who have healing utilities (or 2 plds 1 war in TOP), If healers were actually required to use their full kits (which they should) then you wouldn't be able to replace all healers with tanks like you would now, sure you can do that by also just removing all healing from non healers but I don't see how this makes healer fun? it's just forcing you to use it without solving how little healing you need to do.

You say the game enforces trinity but also has systems in place where you don't have to always use the trinity system, sure it's there as a guideline and enforced to a degree but I don't think a strict trinity system will work for this game, at least I think we should evolve past the baseline idea of the trinity system "tank aggro" "dps do dmg no utility" "healer heal" it' leads to very boring job design where tanks can't really be varied nor can healers be varied, theirs only so many ways a job can actually do it's job that's in a unique way.

I’m not saying that removing sustain from tanks will fix healers (I very very specifically drew mention to that in the comment you quoted). I’m saying that removing sustain from tanks not fixing healers is not itself justification to not do it because the only reason to maintain the status quo is to the benefit of tanks, just as changing it is only to the benefit of healers. Removing tank sustain WILL make healers better, it won’t fix them but it will make them better, so in this instance why is the tank the more important party (again I’m not necessarily advocating this I’m just pointing out your logic is entirely built on the assumption that the tanks fun is more important than the healers for no other reason than its the current status quo)

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

[Aravell]

I disagree to a extent that tanks shouldn't have targeted healing, though I think in a lot of the cases tanks target healing tools are a bit too strong.

Nascent flash being the most egregious example as its 1600 healing, that is doubled due to targeting both the warrior and their target this is of course in addition to warrior having a bunch of healing defensives that make it a clear example of where a tank is taking sustain too far, I think Gunbreakers excog is also a bit too strong in potency and aurora didn't need to be buffed but was fine before so. My issue with paladins self healing is more the selfish holyspirit/blade combo healing more then anything I don't really have a issue with the regen on Sheltron. I think if one limited target self heal can

My main issue with current tanks defensives is the stacked mitigation, I much rather we remove the double mits on a lot of them (15%+15%) and maybe make some of the healing aspects tied to them weaker But I don't think target healing needs to be fully removed.

Note that I didn't say tank targetted healing should be removed, I said it shouldn't be free.

I think Clemency is a great example, it's strong and can be used to save a run but it has an opportunity cost, you cannot just spam it for free. Meanwhile, you can use Nascent Flash whenever you want at no cost to anyone, that's too far out a tank's purview in my opinion. I don't have a big issue with tanks being able to heal, I just think that free healing should only belong to the healer role because it's their main reason for even being in the party.

[Rithy255]

Note that I didn't say tank targetted healing should be removed, I said it shouldn't be free.

Well ideally it should cost you defensively to use your target mit/heal on allies, the issue is that you already got so much defensive power as a tank that using it on a ally isn't a real cost. Hence its just free to use your short cooldowns on allies, because it's not like you'll need to save it for bosses tank busters ect, Theirs no real big cost.

Too a extent it shouldn't be free if it exceeds a reasonable amount, I think some sort of target healing value (without cost) is fine, You'd find it hard to see posts complaining about aurora for example back in shadowbringers, but it was still free.

The issue is multiple reasons at the end of the day when you break it down, 1. tanks have too much defensive value 2. this combines with tanks having self/target heals 3. theirs not a lot of outgoing damage, all these issues are combined to create one bigger issue, my solution would be to tone down that value as a whole. Of course tanks are going to feel like they do the healers job if theirs so little damage that one or two healing cooldowns on a tank can replace them in any sort of content.

Healers shouldn't have "free" heals like tanks they should have a cost, I think that cost is obvious misusing your ogcd healing options, should make you full back on your GCD's, but the issue with that is theirs so little damage due to the tank not taking much and how fights are designed that none of these skills are really even needed on both sides.

Upping damage nerfs tanks by default so it basically ends up the same, but one applies retroactively as well as going forward

Problem is removing all forms of sustain will just lead to 3dps 1Healer dungeon speedruns, I think we should consider propping up both tank and healer design I like sustain and supporting on tank so removing that may "fix" healers to you (I don't think it even comes remotely close to fixing healers), but I sure will be more miserable and bored as a tank, it shouldn't be this lose/lose situation. Of course theirs some instances where things have to be took out or nerfed for example bloodwhetting healing in pulls isn't "balanceable" if you want healers to heal in pulls.

Also retroactively old content has never mattered, I do not ever think we should be afraid of making changes because old content exists, we should balance the game around with new content in mind, old content shouldn't hold us back.

[Supersnow845]

Why would removing tank sustain over-encourage 1H3D, neither the DPS nor the healer can control agro which is a big advantage of why current meta involves 1T3D rather than 4D. Regardless didn’t you yourself say that these sort of off comps should be encouraged? Why is it suddenly a problem if 1H3D replaced 1T3D as the most common off comp? (Even though it won’t)

And again for the 3rd time removing tank sustain won’t fix healers but nor does it not fixing healers justify not removing it because it will make healers relatively better. This circles back to my earlier point. You say “if you do this I’ll be more bored as a tank”. Why does your stance matter more than mine? If you want healers to be allowed to have fun tanks have to give up something. What specifically are you as the tank side willing to give up? Simply changing nothing but giving healers DPS options doesn’t fix healers either, tanks proverbially have to give up something somewhere