#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Silver-Strider]

Did you clear M4S with no healers?

I don't get why people ask this question as though its some sort of gotcha. It's not as, even if I did clear with no healers, it would just get dismissed as I'm part of the 1% capable of doing so. If anything, if more people do clear without healers, the question becomes more of a joke rather than an argument for your stance and works against you. If a week 2 clear is possible, it stands to reason that a week 3/4/5/6/etc would only be easier as more and more people gear out with BiS equipment to further trivialize it.

Why PF for M*S is asking for healers to join? Why people aren't moving to PF to run content without healers?
What's possible is not the norm. Blocking content from being run without healers but not changing healers or the content in any other way is not the solution here.

Skill Issue?
People don't want to play the jobs that enable no healer clears?
Too much of a hassle to change the 2 healer slots for Tank/DPS slots?
People aren't comfortable with that set up?

There's plenty of reasons for why they aren't doing it, that doesn't invalidate the ever decreasing need for healers to complete content though. All it takes is for SE to just decide "screw it" and give everyone the PvP medpacks to heal themselves with in all content and then what? What argument will you have to justify healers then? Why are we waiting for this problem to become widespread instead of nipping it in the bud, especially since it's already been given 5 years to spread its root into the game. It's only going to get worse from here on so I don't see why people continue to argue against fixing the problem as though it doesn't exist

[sharknado]

I have had a similar case happen with a first 95 boss clear while the healer was dead. The "bubbles" took out the healer

Healer is easy to kill while also having to look at party frames

The healing potencies of the mentioned abilities above will have to be dropped down a bit with slightly longer cooldowns introduced.

To what end? If the encounter is flawless the tank can usually carry, but not on every boss. With how easy it is to kill a healer/DPS having healer dead = wipe is not the best situation If healers would be more resilient then probably yes.

If a week 2 clear is possible, it stands to reason that a week 3/4/5/6/etc would only be easier as more and more people gear out with BiS equipment to further trivialize it.

This game is very easy to cheese with specific jobs. Cheese should not affect job design/balance (unless it's the cheese itself causing imbalance).

All it takes is for SE to just decide "screw it" and give everyone the PvP medpacks to heal themselves with in all content and then what? What argument will you have to justify healers then?

Or they will copy Ivalice mechanic bringing everyone to 1HP and healers have to top everyone up few times to prevent cheese but not changing anything beside it. Still glare-botting.

It's only going to get worse from here on so I don't see why people continue to argue against fixing the problem as though it doesn't exist

Cheese isn't the root cause of it and they will not re-do the whole game by changing how they see each trinity element. And if they see that they can get away with putting a singular mechanic next savage tier they will and call it a victory.

We should rather focus on directing them in making healers fun to play as that can be done without blowing up the game. This will mean we won't be healing 24/7 but at least when we are not we have something more meaningful and interesting to do than to glare-bot.

[Silver-Strider]

This game is very easy to cheese with specific jobs. Cheese should not affect job design/balance (unless it's the cheese itself causing imbalance).

How is weaving in oGCD heals classified as cheese? MNK, RPR, DNC, SMN, PLD, WAR, and GNB all have oGCD heals that can replicate what a Healer offers. That isn't cheese, that's just using the tools the game has given to these jobs to supplement in place of a healer. If that's your idea of cheese, then Healers are the full on cow because that's all they do now.

Or they will copy Ivalice mechanic bringing everyone to 1HP and healers have to top everyone up few times to prevent cheese but not changing anything beside it. Still glare-botting.

They could also remove all the heals on every job except healers and it would accomplish the same thing, which is one of the chief complaint that the strike brings up. Everyone has too much damn healing and SE continues to add more to every job every expansion. It's a problem and has been a problem since ShB.

[Tigore]

@ Sharknado

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind if it's a clear from when the healers drop down at 5 - 20% boss HP left. The situation I was talking about was real life distractions with the healer character dieing at around 60 - 80% boss HP. At that point, Nascent Flash is proving to keep my MCH up indefinitely unless I do something really stupid.

Now I do admit that only looking at tank and DPS self heals wouldn't fully solve the problems either. The bosses need to actually do damage to the party to make the healer role needed. The dance mechs are nice to do once in a while, but it also creates huge variance in party damage when done too much. If everyone is on point and avoids it, the boss just did zero damage for maybe 10 - 20 seconds. If everyone gets hit, the healer is in emergency mode using Medica 2 HoTs with maybe Asylum too. Some of the mechs may need to be shifted to gradual damage we can't avoid so that it is needed in more predictable amounts.

[sharknado]

The bosses need to actually do damage to the party to make the healer role needed.

Paradoxically, it will not happen, unless they 360 on their design approach. With their current vision, all normal content will not have any single point of failure.

The dance mechs are nice to do once in a while, but it also creates huge variance in party damage when done too much. If everyone is on point and avoids it, the boss just did zero damage for maybe 10 - 20 seconds. If everyone gets hit, the healer is in emergency mode using Medica 2 HoTs with maybe Asylum too. Some of the mechs may need to be shifted to gradual damage we can't avoid so that it is needed in more predictable amounts.

They have some fear of doing anything other than 3D no-scope dance/chessboard mechanics. However, Tender Valley has one trash pack with ticking damage. That must have been a "radical" design decision.

In Tender Valley on a perfect run as WAR I had more healing than WHM and the WHM had no hard-cast heals. When something goes wrong then the healer gets 2x tank healing if not more. All because as you mention - 90% of damage taken is in spikes from avoidable mechanics. They won't change existing content, it will be hard to move upcoming instances to be different but you never know. Depends on whether they are interested in feedback and take the correct one instead of dropping the issue with some healer-lock mechanic in the next savage. Still, if we get a more WoW-like design with constant damage we end up with the same problem - they don't want a single point of failure in normal content so the damage will be low enough to handle by non-healers Maybe a new variant/criterion dungeon? That isn't obnoxious 3D chess mechanics, it has actual rewards, DF...?

Allegedly 8.0 is about jobs. Curious how much of this is true and what it will imply to their design decisions. AST is closer to WoW Mistweaver aggressive reactive healer than WHM and AST got a rework recently. Will they make healers more aggressive for more aggressive content? The bigger the change the more content will have to be altered and more work on actual design and balancing.

[Supersnow845]

Paradoxically, it will not happen, unless they 360 on their design approach. With their current vision, all normal content will not have any single point of failure.


They have some fear of doing anything other than 3D no-scope dance/chessboard mechanics. However, Tender Valley has one trash pack with ticking damage. That must have been a "radical" design decision.

In Tender Valley on a perfect run as WAR I had more healing than WHM and the WHM had no hard-cast heals. When something goes wrong then the healer gets 2x tank healing if not more. All because as you mention - 90% of damage taken is in spikes from avoidable mechanics. They won't change existing content, it will be hard to move upcoming instances to be different but you never know. Depends on whether they are interested in feedback and take the correct one instead of dropping the issue with some healer-lock mechanic in the next savage. Still, if we get a more WoW-like design with constant damage we end up with the same problem - they don't want a single point of failure in normal content so the damage will be low enough to handle by non-healers Maybe a new variant/criterion dungeon? That isn't obnoxious 3D chess mechanics, it has actual rewards, DF...?

Allegedly 8.0 is about jobs. Curious how much of this is true and what it will imply to their design decisions. AST is closer to WoW Mistweaver aggressive reactive healer than WHM and AST got a rework recently. Will they make healers more aggressive for more aggressive content? The bigger the change the more content will have to be altered and more work on actual design and balancing.

Except there currently is one party member who’s the point of failure-> it’s the tank

The entire party falls apart when the tank is garbage and can’t do their job, why is that allowed but healers have to be made irrelevant to avoid this

[PercibelTheren]

Except there currently is one party member who’s the point of failure-> it’s the tank

The entire party falls apart when the tank is garbage and can’t do their job, why is that allowed but healers have to be made irrelevant to avoid this

I guess because a bad healer is more obvious? 95% of bad tanks just get carried by their healers.

[Aravell]

Except there currently is one party member who’s the point of failure-> it’s the tank

The entire party falls apart when the tank is garbage and can’t do their job, why is that allowed but healers have to be made irrelevant to avoid this

> Healers are a point of failure in the party and that causes friction amongst players.

SE: "Let's give more healing to DPS jobs, and let's also make tanks immortal (not you, DRK) for good measure!"

> Immortal tank wasting everyone's time by soloing a boss for 15 minutes and causing friction within the party as people are telling the tank to stop wasting time and wipe.

SE: "Eh, working as intended."

[sharknado]

Except there currently is one party member who’s the point of failure-> it’s the tank

The entire party falls apart when the tank is garbage and can’t do their job, why is that allowed but healers have to be made irrelevant to avoid this

Not really. If the tank is bad/new he won't pull wall to wall and do nothing and if needed will be told to just take it slower. Not to mention dungeons are made how they are made and it's not that easy to one-shot a tank if it can happen the boss for example is stationary and won't be that annoying to others while the tank gets a rez. In 8-man there are 2 tanks.

And if for whatever reason tank is taking excess damage due to for example lack of gear then if the healer isn't bad it still will be fine. You need a really bad tank and healer for a dungeon group to fail/struggle.

It's their design, it works, and has some flaws, but still checks out. There won't be any sudden changes, at best we can "hope" they put some time and effort into 8.0 in ~2 years. And if not pray return for 9.0...

[Supersnow845]

Not really. If the tank is bad/new he won't pull wall to wall and do nothing and if needed will be told to just take it slower. Not to mention dungeons are made how they are made and it's not that easy to one-shot a tank if it can happen the boss for example is stationary and won't be that annoying to others while the tank gets a rez. In 8-man there are 2 tanks.

And if for whatever reason tank is taking excess damage due to for example lack of gear then if the healer isn't bad it still will be fine. You need a really bad tank and healer for a dungeon group to fail/struggle.

It's their design, it works, and has some flaws, but still checks out. There won't be any sudden changes, at best we can "hope" they put some time and effort into 8.0 in ~2 years. And if not pray return for 9.0...

Your comment basically amounts to

“The tank isn’t a point of failure because the tank has to be pretty bad to be a point of failure and if the tank is bad they can go slower to mitigate this”

Which doesn’t refute my point at all, if anything you acknowledge it you just don’t see it as a problem even though the same arguments can be applied to the healer