#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Ramiee]

Maybe I'm an optimistic fool, but I believe that they will be changing the jobs after this.

When even very positive places like reddit are calling the job design stale, then it's really gotten pretty bad and they need to change course. Yoshi P also did say that the team overdid the simplifications, so maybe there some hope for a new direction.

Either way though, we very likely won't be seeing any change until 8.0 at least, because the dev team doesn't change anything with any amount of speed unless the thing is literally broken and does not work.

Until we get confirmation that CDs stop revolving around 2 minutes I don't think the job design will massively improve.

[Blixie]

Maybe I'm an optimistic fool...

If so, we're travelers on the same ship, so, pleased to meet you. I've appreciated your posts from the start of this thread.

When they put yet another nail in AST and announced the changes for BLM, I felt like maybe things were messed up beyond what they would or could repair. Reading the conversations here encouraged me to think that it wasn't too late.

People seem to be pretty unhappy with DT, so I'm hoping they take a hard look at what players are saying here and in some of the other threads. Job and encounter design are most important for me. I can work around a bad MSQ if they make me, but why bother if the game isn't fun to play.

[ForsakenRoe]

Until we get confirmation that CDs stop revolving around 2 minutes I don't think the job design will massively improve.

Healer design issues have almost nothing to do with the 2min meta, we can keep the 2min BS and still see improvements to the role's gameplay. The only thing it'd affect is Divination/Chain Stratagem's CD, and the duration of DOTs (they'd probably want to have things like 15s or 24s so it lines up nicely), but Chain/Div have always been 2min so

[Ramiee]

Healer design issues have almost nothing to do with the 2min meta, we can keep the 2min BS and still see improvements to the role's gameplay. The only thing it'd affect is Divination/Chain Stratagem's CD, and the duration of DOTs (they'd probably want to have things like 15s or 24s so it lines up nicely), but Chain/Div have always been 2min so

What I said was more about general job design not healers specifically. The 2 minute meta has ruined job design across the board including DPS and Tanks, healers aren't as affected obviously because these problems started in SHB before the 2 minute meta but if this meta didn't exist PoM and therefore Glare IV could of been on a shorter CD but because this meta exists its on a longer one same with psyche being every 60 seconds.
I think in 8.0 if we see that CD timers are getting changed to be more spread and different theres way more of a chance that healers would get some correction in their playstyle because the 2 minute cds was made to cater for simplifcation of job design across the board.

[Ritsugamesh]

The 2 min meta just speaks to a larger problem, one that is equal parts developer and community made.

There are so many tick boxes every job needs to clear to be acceptable:

- Must deal X damage
- Must fit into 2 min buff windows
- Must not require any external influence, i.e. must be self-contained
- Must take x damage from mechanics
- Must be able to stun/interrupt/etc.
- Must have x amount of healing throughput

Every job needs to fit into these square holes so all fights work for every job evenly for everyone in DF and PF so noone gets the feelsbads, and this is the result. Healers feel this so acutely because while Tanks have basically the same defensive kits thrown into the randomiser, and DPS have unique ways to reach target X damage number, healers fundamentally all need to be able to do everything at this stage.

Healers all have shields, regens, % mits, oGCD single target heals, oGCD AOE heals, 1 spam single target attack, 1 spam aoe attack, 1 DoT. AST is the most unique, given it has actual nuance in its delay-based spell usage, and stands out as the most involved healer, but when you need to ensure there are no holes in a job's gameplay, you end up with husks of identity. I mapped out SCH and SGE's spells/actions back on launch and it was legitimately appalling how every part of SCH's kit was basicall just jumbled up into SGE's and packaged as a fresh job.

When you stifle creativity with arbitrary rules and restrictions (again, this is both dev and community made problems) then you end up with absolutely no space to innovate. I don't envy their jobs whatsoever, because there will be fallout no matter which way the pendulum goes, but I know there was a time when things weren't like this.

[Chasingstars]

The 2 min meta just speaks to a larger problem, one that is equal parts developer and community made.

There are so many tick boxes every job needs to clear to be acceptable:

- Must deal X damage
- Must fit into 2 min buff windows
- Must not require any external influence, i.e. must be self-contained
- Must take x damage from mechanics
- Must be able to stun/interrupt/etc.
- Must have x amount of healing throughput

Every job needs to fit into these square holes so all fights work for every job evenly for everyone in DF and PF so noone gets the feelsbads, and this is the result. Healers feel this so acutely because while Tanks have basically the same defensive kits thrown into the randomiser, and DPS have unique ways to reach target X damage number, healers fundamentally all need to be able to do everything at this stage.

Healers all have shields, regens, % mits, oGCD single target heals, oGCD AOE heals, 1 spam single target attack, 1 spam aoe attack, 1 DoT. AST is the most unique, given it has actual nuance in its delay-based spell usage, and stands out as the most involved healer, but when you need to ensure there are no holes in a job's gameplay, you end up with husks of identity. I mapped out SCH and SGE's spells/actions back on launch and it was legitimately appalling how every part of SCH's kit was basicall just jumbled up into SGE's and packaged as a fresh job.

When you stifle creativity with arbitrary rules and restrictions (again, this is both dev and community made problems) then you end up with absolutely no space to innovate. I don't envy their jobs whatsoever, because there will be fallout no matter which way the pendulum goes, but I know there was a time when things weren't like this.

Which I think is the more, funny, part about the mess. All these strange design decisions are from player requests over the years that the devs granted. Why is healer the way it is? Because players asked for it years ago. Why the 2 min meta? Players asked for it. Job homogenization? Players asked for it along with balance. Sure the devs contributed, I won't deny that, they after all implemented such changes, yet its like getting a wish from a genie.

[Isala]

Which I think is the more, funny, part about the mess. All these strange design decisions are from player requests over the years that the devs granted. Why is healer the way it is? Because players asked for it years ago. Why the 2 min meta? Players asked for it. Job homogenization? Players asked for it along with balance. Sure the devs contributed, I won't deny that, they after all implemented such changes, yet its like getting a wish from a genie.

I keep seeing this, but WHO? Who asked for this? I've yet to see any response to these changes that was received positively in my decade of playing this game. I have yet to see anyone, anywhere, not on the forums, not on the subreddit, not on twitter, ANYWHERE, asking for the boneheaded changes they've been making since SHB.

[Supersnow845]

I keep seeing this, but WHO? Who asked for this? I've yet to see any response to these changes that was received positively in my decade of playing this game. I have yet to see anyone, anywhere, not on the forums, not on the subreddit, not on twitter, ANYWHERE, asking for the boneheaded changes they've been making since SHB.

I can’t find much evidence of actual people asking for the post ShB changes (though I have seen many people who support anything just by nature of it being in the game) but that poster is 100% correct that a lot of the decisions we now realise were mistakes were borne from the devs taking suggestions too far from the HW and SB era

There were complaints about cleric stance and DPS complexity in HW and SB that led to the modern healers, there were complaints about buff alignment in ShB after they removed damage types that led to the two minute meta. People do complain when the jobs are unbalanced

Square has a horrible tendency to use a hammer for a job that requires a nail file but all of the changes that player listed were born from actual complaints, even misguided ones.

[Chasingstars]

I can’t find much evidence of actual people asking for the post ShB changes (though I have seen many people who support anything just by nature of it being in the game) but that poster is 100% correct that a lot of the decisions we now realise were mistakes were borne from the devs taking suggestions too far from the HW and SB era

There were complaints about cleric stance and DPS complexity in HW and SB that led to the modern healers, there were complaints about buff alignment in ShB after they removed damage types that led to the two minute meta. People do complain when the jobs are unbalanced

Square has a horrible tendency to use a hammer for a job that requires a nail file but all of the changes that player listed were born from actual complaints, even misguided ones.

Yep. Part of me is wondering if healers who strike now are just wishing to play the equivalent of Heavensward Classic. Where there were more dps checks and heal checks, more job complexity, enmity management, where savage and extreme were considered hard even for the better raiders.

[Ritsugamesh]

I can’t find much evidence of actual people asking for the post ShB changes (though I have seen many people who support anything just by nature of it being in the game) but that poster is 100% correct that a lot of the decisions we now realise were mistakes were borne from the devs taking suggestions too far from the HW and SB era

There were complaints about cleric stance and DPS complexity in HW and SB that led to the modern healers, there were complaints about buff alignment in ShB after they removed damage types that led to the two minute meta. People do complain when the jobs are unbalanced

Square has a horrible tendency to use a hammer for a job that requires a nail file but all of the changes that player listed were born from actual complaints, even misguided ones.

I think there's been a push and pull from both sides for a while. It's an unfortunate truth that those who are happy aren't engaging in discourse about these issues, and those that aren't are. On a personal level, I've played since (yes the dreaded 1.0) and the vast majority of changes that we've weathered were completely out of the blue. This is across the board - TP changes, MP changes, aggro changes, loss of things like boss stat resist downs (int debuffs, etc. and who would fit them into their rotation), jobs being gutted (SCH DPS RIP), loss of Cleric Stance - the list goes on. I'm not saying these were good, bad, or anything in between, but that I was on-board with the vision of the game at 2.0 and played within the confines.

The fact that the devs do show they listen to feedback is positive in many senses, but I do also think that a vision for a game should be upheld and this is where the problem lies. They have not seemingly had a north star for any aspect of the game, even down to the story, outside of not wanting to enrage the playerbase. I feel this has just created an unhealthy relationship where creativity is out the window and everything is shaved to the softest corners and least objectionable output. Dungeons are a fine-tuned data output to say 'this is how long people accept, this the number of trash they accept, this is the number of bosses they accept' - it's actually insane when you think about it. Nobody should be developing a game under that pretence. I could extend this to almost every system in the game - the gear, the MSQ, the patch releases

The MOBA scene wouldn't respect League of Legends if they removed ults because people didn't like how powerful they were - it's part of the game, deal with it or don't. It really boggles my mind.