#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[ForsakenRoe]

Something to note about SGE, that I think might be important to understand why people have such strong views on its implementation, is this line from the announcement back at the EW Fanfests:



People have very different perceptions of what 'augments abilities' means, I expect. For example, while some might argue that Zoe counts as this, because it empowers the next heal to be stronger, or Eukrasia counts, because it modifies the next ability's effect, I'd personally argue that 'if you're going to use the line to show how the new class is cool and hype, it'd better be something that other jobs don't do'. Zoe empowers the next one action, like Recitation does on SCH. Eukrasia modifies the effect of the next one ability, as is the case with Emergency Tactics. So, IMO, they're very lackluster displays of 'augments abilities', when compared to the high hurdle of 'this is a defining feature of the class, enough to be put on the Fanfest info slide'. For comparison, RPR's slide has this:



We can debate whether it is as dynamic as the slide claims, but it definitely does summon a voidsent to help in combat, and sometimes fuses with it. And these are things that no other class does, so it's new and hype.

When I look at 'augments abilities' on the SGE slide, one ability stands out as feeling like it does something unique, something that would set the gameplay of SGE apart from the other healers: Soteria. It's unfortunate that the balance of the job's overall kit renders Soteria a bit overshadowed, but I think that Soteria, augmenting the ability Kardia, fulfills the definition of that slide's bulletpoint the most accurately. Which is why I would like to see SE just add more Soteria-like actions to SGE, with a much shorter CD, and make SGE's defining gameplay be 'it augments Kardia to help it handle healing requirements, without having to let up on the offense'. Philosophia is a nice addition in terms of 'Kardia style heal but AOE', but A: it doesn't benefit from Soteria and B: It's got a ridiculous 3min CD. As shown in the thread I linked, I'd much prefer to have the 'augment' actions be a very low CD (eg 5s), and instead gate their use via another method, such as MP costs. That allows Kardia, and augmenting its effect, to be a much more front-and-center part of the gameplay loop, a much more active contributor to the overall healing profile of the job.

Now we’re left with an impotent variant that’s only beneficial in the nichest of niche cases. All because of the bloody 80p/minute gain.

Ah but you are completely incorrect

... its actually 60p/min, Dosis is 370p nowadays. Over the course of a 12min enocunter, that's (slightly less than) two whole Dosis casts you'd lose! /s

On the topic of it though, if they really had to make the two DOTs not stack for whatever reason, wouldn't it feel so much better if, instead of 40p for 30s, E.Dyskrasia applied the regular E.Dosis DOT (75p per tick), but for 15s? You wouldn't ever use it in single target, still (due to it overwriting), but it'd at least be worth pressing it in more AOE pulls, as it stands I find it hard to find a trash pack that actually lives for 30s

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Ah but you are completely incorrect.

... its actually 60p/min, Dosis is 370p nowadays. Over the course of a 12min enocunter, that's (slightly less than) two whole Dosis casts you'd lose! /s

On the topic of it though, if they really had to make the two DOTs not stack for whatever reason, wouldn't it feel so much better if, instead of 40p for 30s, E.Dyskrasia applied the regular E.Dosis DOT (75p per tick), but for 15s? You wouldn't ever use it in single target, still (due to it overwriting), but it'd at least be worth pressing it in more AOE pulls, as it stands I find it hard to find a trash pack that actually lives for 30s

T-That's a checkmate... how will I ever recover from this...?! /j

Jokes aside, regardless whether it's a gain, loss, or neutral in ST situations, I still think the nail on the coffin is the inability to stack both DoTs. If it's a gain, people can try to optimize it they want to. The gain is so miniscule that ignoring the optimization probably ain't going to be comparable to placing 1 extra Phlegma charge outside buff window. If it's a neutral, people can use it as a potential movement tool so long target remains within 5y radius from the SGE. Same if it's a loss except it'll be on priority above 4th Toxikons. It will still shine the best in trash pulls because people wouldn't have to worry to overwrite their E.Dosis IIIs. It's not much. But it's way better than current iteration.

They had 1 expansion to develop SGE into something greater, and they squandered it. HMMMMMMM I wonder what else in the role that suffers similarly? Ah yes, Lily gauge. The last time it was developed any meaningfully was in ShB. People were asking for any semblance of utilities, preferably attached to the lily system. What do we get instead? EW changes neutered the nuance and didn't even gave the system anything new while at the same time adding Lily insignia to Holy III and Lilybell... the two actions that have absolutely no bearing toward Lily Gauge itself... for what exactly (ngl I felt insulted)? Is that the most they're willing to put effort into the job? What a surprise, fast forward to DT SGE is treated similarly. Lily gauge, who? Idk her.

Will they get better? I don't know, I can't cast Divination IRL. But based on their track record, I'm pessimistic.

[Supersnow845]

Their fear of making it a gain in single target has functionally made it useless even in AOE, since you DOT targets while running it’s a bigger loss to override those ticking dots by using e dyskrasia than it is to actually use e dyskrasia

[Supersnow845]

(Side note I’m not being condescending using Caps, it’s because it’s annoying to embolden text on mobile)

I never mentioned SGE being weaker than SCH in this particular comment. You asked me why addersgall lacks nuance compared to aetherflow and why I didn’t like addersgall and I told you. They didn’t “go in different directions” with the two classes they dumped the same skills on the new healer that you use in the same situation and left it at that. Old SMN and old SCH worked because they while they shared the core aspects of their damage kit they were diversified by the fact that SMN had its Bahamut magic forming the core of its burst while SCH had fairy control. You might say “well SCH and SGE are like that because the aetherflow/addersgall are the same and then they branch from there. Except kardia and the fairy are the same, the GCD healing options are the same, panhaima and seraph are the same, physis and whispering dawn are the same. There is no diversity there, SGE just copied SCH and in my eyes it’s a very valid complaint that the “new class” didn’t do anything unique and just copied SCH. Would it be okay if the new physical ranged next expansion was a 3 part combo with a reverse 3 part combo and a freeform burst builder but the burst was 3% instead of 5% and the “big nuke” gave a shield instead of a heal because “PCT is a good design and they wanted to use it as a foundation”

SCH doesn’t “win” because it was first. SCH wins because its kit was organically designed around its needs as the game developed and retains depth induced by choice. SGE copies SCH without understand why SCH is the way it is and with all of SCH’s nuance ripped out of it to make it “flow” better and then with additions made in DT seems to have no idea what to do with SGE. Like I despise seraphism but I can at least point to the fact that Seraphism covers SCH’s two age old weaknesses- namely healing on the move and sustained pure healing. WHAT does philosophia add to SGE? Like genuinely I cannot think of a niche philosophia fills. If they wanted “pankardia” for flavour then 1) they failed at making it actually pankardia and 2) in a world pankardia exists in physis is useless as a separate skill but since physis exists philosophia just comes off as a second charge of physis on 3 times the CD. What gives anyone confidence in the design of a class that don’t its first expansion copying SCH and its second introducing a skill that doesn’t have a niche

And the way you’ve responded to my point about the mit plan just seems to show you are desperate to sell pointless “difference” as meaningful difference. Physis and whispering dawn fill exactly the same niche, same as expedience and holos. Savage doesn’t ask for you to draw out the sort of use that makes holos heal actually meaningfully useful (not saying it’s useless but if you are pressing it you are pressing it for the mitigation) so the plans function the same. You can’t do this with AST and WHM. If your heal plan on WHM says rapture what do you press on AST? You don’t have an equivalent because their heal kits are different. On SGE/SCH I know exactly what heal/mitigation maps to what and so I can use the same mitigation plan. I went from SCH to SGE and when I pressed expedient I pressed holos, so I was blatantly wasting holos’s heal and had zero problems. On week 2. I also went from critdom to pnuema so I never used Zoe on pnuema, again I had no problems. Week 2. Nothing in 14’s healing design asks enough of the healers to make these tiny differences meaningful AND even if it did as I’ve shown the two have skills that fill those tiny differences anyway just by pressing a different button. So even if you want to argue that the mitigation of holos and expedience is m mindfully different in a mit plan because holos also has a heal which you’ll waste 99% of the time anyway I can just use blessing to cover that heal achieving the same thing anyway. Which AST and WHM don’t have

[YarnMage48]

(Side note I’m not being condescending using Caps, it’s because it’s annoying to embolden text on mobile)

SCH doesn’t “win” because it was first. SCH wins because its kit was organically designed around its needs as the game developed and retains depth induced by choice. SGE copies SCH without understand why SCH is the way it is and with all of SCH’s nuance ripped out of it to make it “flow” better and then with additions made in DT seems to have no idea what to do with SGE. Like I despise seraphism but I can at least point to the fact that Seraphism covers SCH’s two age old weaknesses- namely healing on the move and sustained pure healing. WHAT does philosophia add to SGE? Like genuinely I cannot think of a niche philosophia fills. If they wanted “pankardia” for flavour then 1) they failed at making it actually pankardia and 2) in a world pankardia exists in physis is useless as a separate skill but since physis exists philosophia just comes off as a second charge of physis on 3 times the CD.

You could have just left the emphasis out. Let me remind you what you originally said.

"Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance"

But then you say that:

"They are lacking in nuance because they are COPIES, I don’t know how to make this any clearer."

You could have made it clearer by saying what you really thought in the first place. No need to add emphasis when really all you did was clearly communicate your position.

But here you are again claiming that Scholar has "more nuance", without explaining what you mean by that. When it comes to Philosophia, it can either boost your healing magic or give you a "pankardia" effect. This is a skill that can be used in different situations, based on whether you need another regen or some boosted GCD heals. Boosted GCD shield/heals are good for managing unscripted damage and recovery, or just a lot of damage and not a lot of time to respond to it. As far as applicability for the additional regen, there's the Beat 1 Phase in M2S, in which players have a DoT that grows in potency throughout the 1 minute and 50 second phase. There is a lot of use for additional regen time during that phase. So there's a good potential for use.

Physis has both effects at a lower potency and has a shorter cooldown. Philopsohia effectively only lets you use one of the two effects in any given GCD, but the effect is more powerful, and the cooldown is longer. So I'm going to place Philosophia where I need the stronger effect (such as having the stronger regen further into Beat 1), and use Physis for when I need a smaller regen.

[Supersnow845]

snip

This is what I’m saying, your explanation of what you do with philosophia is basically just rewording the tooltip. “Oh you can use it to boost GCD healing or you can use it when you need a regen”, yes thank you I can read that from the tooltip what I’m saying is what does this achieve for SGE that it didn’t already have? SGE doesn’t struggle with regen output and by and large GCD amplification on SGE is weak unless it’s Zoe so what is this skill actually doing for the class? I can point out in one sentence what seraphism does for SCH without rewording its tooltip just as I can point out what sunsign and divine caress do for WHM and AST. But I can’t point out what philosophia does for SGE

It fills no niche, it’s just a physis equivalent where they could have retooled physis to do exactly the same thing. This seems to be the core of our disagreement, you see difference where it exists in the tooltips, I see it where it affects gameplay. This also extends to your second quote about how you picked a very specific situation and said that “this adds 500 potency or so to my healing that SCH can’t replicate with the equivalent skills”, yes sure but do you need that 500 potency? In your specific example the answer is no, if you did substitute the equivalent SCH skills you wouldn’t get that 500 potency but you wouldn’t be in any danger of dying and the next damage is ages away. So differences exist as per the tooltips but they don’t exist as per gameplay

Now I’m sorry if I came off as rude, I genuinely don’t mean to be, sometimes my phrasing can be a bit abrasive but your opinion of seeing difference in the tooltips isn’t necessarily wrong, I just personally disagree with it

[YarnMage48]

This seems to be the core of our disagreement, you see difference where it exists in the tooltips, I see it where it affects gameplay. This also extends to your second quote about how you picked a very specific situation and said that “this adds 500 potency or so to my healing that SCH can’t replicate with the equivalent skills”, yes sure but do you need that 500 potency? In your specific example the answer is no, if you did substitute the equivalent SCH skills you wouldn’t get that 500 potency but you wouldn’t be in any danger of dying and the next damage is ages away. So differences exist as per the tooltips but they don’t exist as per gameplay

I simply pulled an example from the current raid series. I could pull another one, if you like? I picked it because its a spot where I used both of Panhaima's effects and both of Holos's effects, which seemed liked a good way to illustrate gameplay differences. There are other spots where I used both effects of Panhaima and Holos if you'd care to hear about them. I really enjoy situations where I can use their full potential, so there are a few. But you know, I'm not really inclined to do so when you don't seem to be really reading my posts. I mean, you didn't acknowledge the gameplay examples I gave for Philospophia, and you used the wrong numbers for the heal potency I had in my heal plan. That makes it seem like you weren't paying attention to what I was saying. And having the impression that you weren't paying attention to what I wrote just causes me to feel really disrespected. Maybe you didn't mean to give that impression. But that is the message you send when you don't acknowledge what I'm saying.

I'm genuinely interested in knowing how you would handle those mechanics in M2S. Actually, how did your team handle those mechanics? Why do you think 700 potency of healing isn't needed when each of the 4 hits of damage takes out a significant amount of the party's health? Would not 700 potency of healing be relevant when you need to recover a lot of health in between each hit? Auto-hp regen isn't going to cut it, so that healing has to come from somewhere. Or are you trying to say that there's time to use other skills? Why use additional skills when you can utilize a more efficient heal plan, keeping those skills available for other mechanics?

[Supersnow845]

snip

The feeling of “we aren’t being heard” is mutual I can assure you

As I’ve posted like 5 times. Take a step back. Look at the kit of SGE. Look at the kit of SCH. Why are they so similar? I NEED you to answer this question because otherwise everything else is pointless. Every single point you have made dances around this issue and this is why I keep bringing it up with comments like “you are trying to sell difference”. Sure you came up with a way to effectively use the heal of holos: but you aren’t looking at the wider picture. Why does SGE need the same 10% mitigation on a 2 minute CD SCH already has with the same 300 potency heal from blessing tacked onto it. Why is SGE’s primary mitigation a bubble that’s a 10% mitigation for 15 seconds with a 30 second CD that gets a regen for 550 potency at 78 given that’s a literal 1 to 1 rip of sacred soil. Why are you trying to act like SGE had no choice but to be a slightly different SCH so the only option is to look at these tiny differences? Why wasn’t SGE totally unique. Like PCT is totally unique, the closest analogue to PCT is SB SMN, why can PCT be unique but SGE has to be so similar to SCH that we are arguing about the colour of the rose petals in the weed filled garden

Mitigation plans for healers should not be “oh yeah we pressed the same button but I got an extra heal out of it” it should be completely different between healers. If you think the peak of shield healer optimisation is pressing holos as one button rather than expedient+blessing then sure…….i don’t remotely think so. SGE should be a DIFFERENT healer to SCH. Minute differences in mitigation plans isn’t “difference” in my eyes

As a side note I ignored the specifics of your philisophia example because nothing you mentioned was a niche. You just said “oh I need a regen for this mechanic” but didn’t explain why ONLY philosophia could fill that niche and not kerechole or physis. If you can think of an actual unique niche for philosophia I’m all ears

snip

On the topic of your dungeon point dungeon healing is fine to be easy. But the other roles aren’t “helping” make dungeon healing more accessible. They are straight up replacing the healer. Like I’m a more garbage healer in dungeons than any other content because the game simply does not encourage me at all to pay attention so I end up slacking. The dungeon healing curve should still be a progressive curve, but instead the hardest dungeons to heal are the mid 40’s and 90 you are functionally vestigial. How many healers are we losing to “why am I playing a role when the dungeon doesn’t need me”

[Maltothoris]

Why do you think 700 potency of healing isn't needed when each of the 4 hits of damage takes out a significant amount of the party's health? Would not 700 potency of healing be relevant when you need to recover a lot of health in between each hit?

Here are the big things. First off, damage is scripted. No matter how many times you do something, all damage is generally the same maybe one time is a higher roll doing 5 percent more damage but generally it's very static. Case in point, look at FRU. We have this right here which helped formed the mit plans that are going around. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=427063653

The other thing is, everyone has something. All melees have feint, all casters have addle, all ranged have their 15 percent, all tanks have their reprisal and their 90 seconds. Not to mention, even then, we still have a lot of overheal. In my fru clears I have about 30 overheal. My pure healing partners have 50. 50 percent overheal does kind of show that we have too much healing.

[ForsakenRoe]

As far as your baseless accusation that I'm "desparate to sell pointless difference as meaningful difference", I think this is best addressed with a specific example.

M2S starts off with a Raid Wide, either a partner stack or spread, a second partner stack or spread, and then a raid wide as its goes into Beat 1. There's 23 seconds, then 29 seconds, then 23 seconds, respectively, between these hits. So I can't just use Kerachole for everything. But if I use Kerachole for the phase transition, that HoT also helps with the aforementioned long DoT.

Precast DeployAdlo before combat begins, this protects you from the first raidwide all on its own. For the first 'Love', Summon Seraph, drop one Consolation, and use Soil (and Fey Illumination before these if you feel like it, to buff the Consolation). For the second 'Love, you use the second Consolation after the first Love hits, and then use Expedient to mitigate. Then, Soil's up again for the raidwide that goes into Beat 1, and if you didn't use it before, you can throw Fey Illumination onto this too. In progression, you're much less concerned with 'spend every GCD on damage', and so you can throw Recitation Succor, or Deploy>Adlo, onto things with almost reckless abandon. For example, you could Recitation Succor the 2nd Love (supplementing the lonely Expedient), and then Deploy Adlo would be up (assuming you precast it before combat) for Beat 1's raidwide. Later on in gearing, when you're BIS and trying to parse, the 'advantage' of the additional heals that things like Holos provide, aren't as big a factor as you take less damage in the first place, have more Max HP, your other actions like Whispering Dawn etc. heal for more, etc. If the 300p healing of Holos really is such a big deal, well, as well as there being some pure healing being attached to those Consolations you'd be using, SCH can throw out Fey Blessing for the same 300p (ish, it's listed as 320 but pet potency still isn't 1:1, thanks SE). But it's also available twice as often as Holos' healing is (2min for Holos, 1min for Fey Blessing).

There is indeed some differences/nuances to how Panhaima compares to Consolation. Namely, Panhaima lasts 15s. Consolation lasts for 30s, and can be used up to ~18s after Summon Seraph (later risks ghosting the action), and so you can have 'party protected from attack' happen up to like, 48 seconds after pressing Summon Seraph. What you're covering with the combination of Holos' mit and its 300p barrier, SCH achieves by having access to its two Consolation charges, that can be placed as far apart as they are able to be. Effectively, one of SCH's weaknesses is that it has a lot of actions that feel 'weaker' on the surface than SGE (eg Panhaima protects you 6 times, Consolation only twice), but on the other hand, SCH's tools offer a lot more versatility in how/when you use them (for example, if I want the mit, but not necessarily the barrier, of Holos, I don't get the option, they are a package deal), and if you want to match the functionality of SGE's actions, you're much more able to do so by simply using more than one action, and combining them together for an 'effect greater than the sum of their parts'

I'm also not sure what you're talking about with 'needing Seraphic Veil up for the first raidwide', or having it up for anything, really. It's just Embrace, but with an additional effect of 'barrier for 100% of the healing it does'. That barrier is one of those 'it's nice to have, but it's not a factor in the plan' things when it comes to raidwide damage.

I would say that the statement of 'you can translate the mit plan 1:1 with no changes at all' is not true. Rather, the issue is that you can translate like 85% of it directly like that, which means that by doing the fight as one of the two jobs, you're already most of the way there on the other, which lessens how much time the player spends in the 'fun prog phase' for the fight. Going into a fight and clearing it on PCT doesn't necessarily translate to knowing how to do the fight as BLM, because of the very different playstyles of the two jobs, even though they're both Casters. Similarly, there's a bit more to reprogging a fight as AST, after clearing as WHM, due to the delayed healing effects, having to swap Lily instant healing for HOT based OGCD healing, etc. But with SCH/SGE, there's far more overlap in functionality with SCH's Tool A vs SGE's Tool B (currently), and that's where the debate arises.

A lot of the reason for this is simply that the game doesn't have systems enough to make the small differences feel like they're very apparent, so SE's boxed themselves into just giving us such basic effects for tools. For example, take Philosophia. Its effect is effectively Plenary Indulgence, with the additional perk that 'the healing can be triggered by all GCDs, not just AOE heals'. Plenary could just as well have been updated to be triggered by Cure2, or Regen, or Dia and Glare, either as a regular update or as a trait learned later in levelling. But then, Plenary is a 60s CD, and Philosophia is a 180s CD. Does the 20% bonus healing effect (which doesn't actually affect Eudaimonia itself, if you can believe that) really justify the extra CD? I feel like the action would work better as a 120s CD, with the potency-per-proc lowered to, say, 120p if needed for 'balance', but hey, if it were 100% up to me, it would have a completely different function

When every 'question' that raid design asks of the player can be answered with 'Heal', 'Barrier', 'Mitigation' or some combination thereof, is it any wonder that we see such overlaps in functionality in the kits?