#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the main issue with Eukrasia is how little it affects. Let's take the four actions it modifies:

Diagnosis is 450p. If we change Eukrasian Diagnosis from '300p, Barrier for 180%' to '450p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Diagnosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Diagnosis unrequired as an action.

Prognosis is 300p. If we change Eukrasian Prognosis from '100p, Barrier for 360%' to '300p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Prognosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Prognosis unrequired as an action.

With these two actions no longer requiring Eukrasian interaction, the only remaining thing Eukrasia would achieve is 'it is how you access your DOT'. And at that point, rather than 'swap Dosis to E.Dosis', it could just as well be another 'press this to apply DOT' button like the other healers have. Point is, what Eukrasia actually 'does', its purpose for being a button on the hotbar, can be invalidated with simple numerical tweaks

This would be far less of a problem if Eukrasia did more than just 'swap button A to button A2', eg if Eukrasian Dosis did something else via Kardia, if Eukrasian Phlegma or Eukrasian Toxikon existed and had different effects on Kardia such as triggering an AOE heal, etc. becuase then Kardia would be a system that has depth enough to set it apart from SCH (who would presumably have more Faerie interaction within their gameplay)

[YarnMage48]

I think the main issue with Eukrasia is how little it affects. Let's take the four actions it modifies:

Diagnosis is 450p. If we change Eukrasian Diagnosis from '300p, Barrier for 180%' to '450p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Diagnosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Diagnosis unrequired as an action.

Prognosis is 300p. If we change Eukrasian Prognosis from '100p, Barrier for 360%' to '300p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Prognosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Prognosis unrequired as an action.

With these two actions no longer requiring Eukrasian interaction, the only remaining thing Eukrasia would achieve is 'it is how you access your DOT'. And at that point, rather than 'swap Dosis to E.Dosis', it could just as well be another 'press this to apply DOT' button like the other healers have. Point is, what Eukrasia actually 'does', its purpose for being a button on the hotbar, can be invalidated with simple numerical tweaks

This would be far less of a problem if Eukrasia did more than just 'swap button A to button A2', eg if Eukrasian Dosis did something else via Kardia, if Eukrasian Phlegma or Eukrasian Toxikon existed and had different effects on Kardia such as triggering an AOE heal, etc. becuase then Kardia would be a system that has depth enough to set it apart from SCH (who would presumably have more Faerie interaction within their gameplay)

So the gist of your new model is to take away the standard Prognosis and Diagnosis, and replace them with skills that incorporate both direct healing and shield. In other words, make them exactly like SCH GCD heals. Then we can change how the DoT's work to make them literally exactly the same as other healers' DoT's.

I'm sorry. What?

You want to make Sage even more like Scholar? The flexibility to switch your GCD between a direct heal and a heal/shield mix is one of Sage's distinctions. Why are you suggesting that SE remove it? Why are you suggesting that the DoT be truly exactly the same as other healers?

If SE did what you're suggesting, the immediate reaction from players would be that "Eukrasian variants was one of the only differences between Scholar and Sage, and now they've taken that away too! Why do they hate healers so much?"

This is exactly what I was getting at before when I pointed out that no matter what SE does, players will still complain.

If you don't like the Eukrasia system, that's fine. It's not for everyone and that's ok. But they did give us something different. If it doesn't fit your playstyle, there are other healers to chose from.

I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Eukrasia still do too little today to make SGE anymore distinct. Once again I defer folks to just take a look on PvP SGE's Kardia system and it won't be hard to connect the dots.

Nowadays I just play SGE without using Kardia at all for the giggles. The contents I'm running never warrant the HPS that button provides when I'm vomitting overheals with anything I do. (I die a little inside everytime people scream at me to pop Kardia just because)

High ends? I only recall Kardia being useful and *slightly more* engaging in P3S, not because it's a regen but more because there's a mechanic that actually make me want to swap my Kardia to anybody who's not blue coded: my co-healer.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

The thing is, we try to NOT interact with Eukrasia outside refreshing DoT twice a minute & it's disappointing. Kardia and Eukrasia combined has such comparatively small impact when you compare what the likes of Addersgall system, Panhaima, Haima, Holos, etc can provide for very little trade off. What they need to do should be the other way around: more impactful decision making attached to Kardia & Eukrasia system while toning down the rest in their kits. Addersgall gauge are usually the first in lines of suggestions to be reworked. There's a reason why Addersgall gauge are often meme'd with "They're the same picture"-gag with SCH's Aetherflow. Suspiciously similar effects, suspiciously similar and/or outright same potency, suspiciously same cooldowns, suspiciously same learning level. So? Remove addersgall but ensure its impact are integrated elsewhere---preferably the already existing Eukrasia & Kardion system.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

Basically, yeh. If anyone thinks I want SGE to become even more similar to SCH, after all of what I wrote here... yeh, IDK

The point (though made not-very-well, possibly) is that, of all the possible designs SE could have used to make SGE 'feel different from SCH', they chose one with such small difference that it can be undone by simply tweaking a couple of numbers. There's also like... zero reason, once you have the Eukrasia button, to ever press Diagnosis or Prognosis. E.Prog/E.Diag at least restores part of their 'damage cost' via Toxikon, the MP cost increase is ignoreable due to MP economy being so strong (and the increase between Prognosis and E.Prog is literally 100), the MP you save by using the Toxikon charge given (400p saved) outweighs the 100p cheaper cost of Prognosis anyway, the extra healing that Diagnosis gives over E.Diag (or Prognosis gives over E.Prog) is easily covered by... literally anything else in the kit. The only thing that makes the distinction 'interesting' at all, is that the shields are instant and the heals are not.

What I'm trying to get at though, is 'why have a button that upgrades my 'Medica 1 button' into a 'Succor button' (E.Prognosis and Succor even have the same effective barrier potencies!)', when there are alternative ways that the two could have been made distinct in gameplay, such as 'attack which costs more MP than Dosis, deals same damage as Dosis, but applies the Kardia heal to everyone in an AOE instead of just one person'? Or 'attack which applies a barrier to Kardia target', or 'attack which applies a Regen to Kardia target', etc. Why not lean into the idea that SGE heals by attacking (via Kardia), and give it kit that allows it to perform more of the Healer Role Responsibilities via Kardia?

Imagine a new healer comes out, say they finally manage to come up with something for Chemist. If it has an AOE heal on the GCD that 'heals for X potency, and applies a barrier for Y% of healing done', nobody's going to care what small 'twist' they do to make it seem a little different, it's going to be referred to as 'their Succor'. If it doesn't have a Barrier attached and is just a pure heal, it's 'their Medica'. And it's okay IMO that they have a similar base kit, AST and WHM have incredibly similar base kits, Helios/Medica, Regen/Asp.Helios, Cure/Benefic, etc. It's the extra kit they have that distinguishes the two. WHM has Afflatus spells and a refund system to make them damage neutral, AST has a lot of 'delayed healing' whether via HOTs or 'literally wait to let the action become stronger' like Star, plus it also has an entire system to play around, the Arcana. SCH and SGE don't have enough distinction in that 'extra kit', IMO, hence they get the judgemental glare. Addersgall is Aetherflow, the spenders are similar enough that they have the same keybinds, and Toxikon is 'Ruin 2 with extra steps'

BTW, Eukrasia is just 'inverse Emergency Tactics'. Instead of 'remove Barrier to heal harder', it removes part of the heal (Prognosis goes from 300>100) to apply a Barrier. Which is funny, because SGE also has 'Actual Emergency Tactics, but also the inverse' with Pepsis, where you take an applied Barrier, and then purposely break it to cause instant healing. They could have at least made it so, when a barrier breaks from damage, a buff is left for a few seconds that Pepsis can work off of, allowing you to have a gameplay of 'raidwide hits, instantly Pepsis to get a 'healing-based counterattack' of sorts'. That alone would be pretty cool to see (especially if Pepsis had a shorter CD, 30s is ridiculous for what it does)

[YarnMage48]

snip

Yes there is in fact a reason I found your post to be quite baffling. Thank you for clarifying.

I think part of what we are running into here is that most, if not all of the people in this discussion have a pretty good idea of how to actually use their kit. As a result, we aren't using GCD heals very often. And maybe opinions on that differ but I do like that model. But, given that whenever a new raid tier comes out, the Devs wake up and choose piety for all the highest ilvl gear pieces, I can only assume that there is a large faction of healers out there who struggle with MP economy. And if you're struggling with MP economy you probably aren't utilizing your kit very well. My official position on the matter is that how much piety you want on your gear is an expression of skill. And well. Some players need the piety. I have played with some of them. So the current way Eukrasia works has more applicability to players who are leaning more on those GCD skills. To say it more broadly, the class is functional for players with a broad range of skill. But at the same time, it's also nice to have the pure heal options if a run gets really really bad. And hey it happens. But that also means that, in large part, the gimmick of Eukrasia losses the spotlight for players with more skill. And that is a little unfortunate. But I don't think that means that its a poor design choice.

It's also worth saying that Philosophia is essentially a party-wide Kardia for its duration, if you aren't using it for the heal buff. So they did expand the concept of Kardia in a way similar to what you've described. I'd love it if they did that more.

I am going to go back to my position that one of the main differences between Sage and Scholar is adaptability. Yes a lot of things are built very similarly and can be keybound using the same pattern, but there are a lot of subtle differences and in practice Sage can do more on the fly. Emergency Tactics and Pepsis are a great example of this. Because Emergency Tactics needs to be used before the heal GCD, your scholar is going to need to plan for that. But Pepsis is hit after, so a Sage can decide after the fact that they'd prefer the heal. However, the heal potential of Emergency tactics is higher, especially if you were to say, combine it with Recitation. So I still find them to be very different classes in practice, even if there are a lot of parallels in the way the class is set up. Could there be more? Absolutely. I'd love more. I just think that there's more there than SE gets credit for.

[TheDustyOne]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

[YarnMage48]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

[TheDustyOne]

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

Filler only has those negative connotations in story telling to mean time-waster. Fair enough if you're looking at the word "filler" with that lens, but filler simply means something that fills time, whether that be time-wasters like beach episodes or something you do when there's nothing better to do, it's only negative if you see those things as negative. I'd rather be pressing a button in spare time than idling, so as far as I'm concerned, filler isn't negative here.

Everyone else is more or less using filler in this thread not to mean something negative, but just to describe what something is. If you can get past the bias you have of it being negative in this context, you'll more or less get what we're trying to say. Filler doesn't mean unimportant like the 10 minutes of recapping last time on One Piece, but just that time is being filled with something meaningful like dealing damage.

[Supersnow845]

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing