#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[YarnMage48]

It's not like people don't want to appreciate and enjoy the 'differences'. The issue is, SE doesn't want those.

Instant shield? Sure, that's what SCH doesn't have on the fly. But when do we actually benefit that? You have millions other heals before you even think about pressing E.Diag/Prognosis, so you will also be spamming Dosis III/Broil IV regardless. Now unless your party is a clown fiesta, that could be a different story... but wait. Recently they just gave SCH Seraphism, which essentially deletes every single weakness the job had up to this point. The only time I believe SGE outclasses SCH was at lv80 as the existence of Holos sort of tipped that balance just slightly, only for it to return to the other way when SCH receives Expedient at lv90.

tl;dr SGE trades higher potential for simplicity, ease of use, and foolproofness. SCH could rival SGE's ridiculous HPS potential, if they're not being kept on check by Energy Drains... except they can absolutely play SCH like they're playing a SGE: ignore energy drains.

I definitely benefited from being able to run and shield at the same time last tier. If my party was more "optimal" would that have been needed? No, probably not. But hey, I don't need my party to be optimal.

I gotta ask though, do you think Sage has higher potential or not? Because you seem to be saying both.

At any rate, I can't really get behind the idea that its SE that doesn't want differences, given the amount of complaining about differences that happens. If we liked differences, we wouldn't be getting into whether certain classes are better. And, when you want to make sure that content is clearable by any standard party comp, there's going to be some similarities in how the classes operate. If there wasn't, you would get people insisting on having certain classes or class combinations in parties. Well, more than this already happens - just look at how many PF parties insist that they MUST have TWO melees. If individual classes were too different, players would bully other players into fitting into the calculated ideal party composition. Again, that already happens to an extent. And that wouldn't be fun for everyone. So again. The lack of differences is a community issue. We need to let players play the classes they enjoy without getting petty about which classes are "better" or "worse", or complaining that certain classes are "too easy", or "too hard", or "too complicated". As long as that goes on, SE is going to get the message that the community thinks that "different is bad". And no amount of complaining on the forum about a lack of differences is going to counteract that.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]I gotta ask though, do you think Sage has higher potential or not? Because you seem to be saying both[...]

Apologies if I seem to be saying both, but no. When I implied that SCH having better potential, I was speaking of their HPS, mitigative, and design front. This can be seen from the numbers they given to both healers. Such as:

1. Kerachole lasts 15s with 500p HoT, more flexible and easier to use. Sacred Soil lasts for 17-18s with 600p HoT and is arguably clunkier due to the nature of ground targeting actions + requiring allies to be within the bound of the AoE.
2. E.Prog II is 460 effective potency, 1s faster, and instant AoE heal. Succor is 560 effective potency, 1s slower, and needs to be cast.
3. Panhaima is potentially 1,200 effective potency that goes out within a single weave window (so press and forget) and does not require you think of your position (ever since they gave it 30y radius) but has a very limited time period of which you need to be taking damage in order to capitalize them which usually ends up being overheal. As opposed to Seraph-Consolation whose potencies from 2 charges amounts up to 1,000 effective potency, but you have the agency to decide which instance of damage you want to deal with per charges within 20s, and has effective duration up to 49s seconds.
4. Energy Drain and its implication to SCH's gameplay. This one niche damage optimization option allows SCH to indirectly controls their HPS output. Don't need that stack? ED away. What does SGE have? Uhh.. yeah, just throw that Druochole to keep mana happy (lol).
5. Addersgall vs Aetherflow. One does not require to be managed actively to keep it rolling but you are capped to 4-5 burst uses... if you need it somehow. The other requires SCH to consciously hit Aetherflow to keep them rolling but they can potentially do 'aetherflow superdump' up to 6 stacks (or 9 if you include dissipation) if that's even needed.

Before they expand the radiuses, Physis II (used to be 20y centered on the SGE) vs Whispering Dawn also demonstrated the same "trading potential for ease of use"-syndrome.

[...]At any rate, I can't really get behind the idea that its SE that doesn't want differences, given the amount of complaining about differences that happens[...]

I probably shouldn't have worded it "SE doesn't want difference". For that I apologize for the confusion. What I should be saying instead was "SE is afraid to create that difference". They have demonstrated over the course of several years that they're unable to parse why XYZ feedbacks are happening from the first place.

I.e. People complain about -that one SCH- who spent their AF stacks for ED for whatever reason (playing skillfully, chasing funny numbers, or just bad at making correct decision). Their response? Creates a proto-SGE that was SCH 5.0 only for them to give us back ED after a massive backlash and... what a surprise, necro'd that variant of SCH in 6.0 but gave them a different coat of paint & call them "SGE". What a waste of design space, IMHO.

What else? Oh right, AST! It's an RNG'y job at its inception but then people start complaining about RNG... in an RNG'y job. Their response? ShB, EW, and finally DT AST. As the icing on the top, people also mentioned wanting varied cards to play and manipulate. Their response? Here you go 4th Essential Dignity, 2nd Exaltation, 3rd Celestial Intersection. Oh don't worry, they're all card VFX! Have fun!

EDIT: Heck, even that one media tour build where SGE was shown been able to stack their E.Dosis III and E.Dyskrasia? I'm willing to bet that's what they actually wanted to implement. It's only because certain somebody made a comment how they will feel 'pressured' to be keeping both DoT up in raids due to being a gain for... what, 80p per minute? Even single AF stack spent for Energy Drain would immediately outclasses that and they worry about that? But alas, SE caved in and effectively made E.Dyskrasia totally useless button outside nichest of the niche case of uses.

[YarnMage48]

snip [/I]

Sure, I see what you mean in terms of raw heal output from single abilities. And getting to use, ah, what's it called? You guarantee the single target crit shield and then give that shield to everyone. That's OP. Brilliant. I love that scholars can do that. Very scholarly. Panhaima is one of those skills that's great for multi-hit stacks or a multiple instances of damage in a short period, but can be hard to use otherwise. Although, baring any better options, I will often utilize the heal. So like, in Wicked Thunder, I'd pop it for Witch Hunt 2, and if it times out right, everyone would get 1 shield for their witch hunt damage, and then 4 stacks worth of heal. Was that the most optimal way to use Panhaima? Not really. Was it more optimal than just not using it? For sure for sure. But at any rate, even its hard to find a good use for it sometimes, I really like having that unique skill. Oh but, getting to use AF stacks for damage? definitely a plus. I mean I'm probably not hurting for the MP if I'm not healing anyways, but man, leaving addersgall capped for a while just feels bad. I do like the way it "forces" you to engage with that system, rather than SCH having the option to ignore their AF heals and just use ED. But. Leaving it capped is no fun.

But its discussions like these that prevent me from comprehending the idea that "they're basically the same class", you know? When you really dig into it, they're so different in how you manage resources and utilize skills. And they have different skills that are great in different situations. So again, the idea that Sage is just worse Scholar is... just not true. They're so different and both so great. At least from my perspective.

I think you might be right on the money with saying the SE is afraid to create more differences. I haven't followed the healer lore long enough to know what specific scholar incident you're referring to, nor can I really track with the class changes throughout patches, but I think we are largely saying the same things as far as "SE gives us differences and we complain". I think the hardest issue they face is that even if they make changes to please one group of players, in doing so they are going to massively upset other players. So then they get stuck playing whack-a-mole trying to placate different groups of players. Try to please all, please none. But of course every single one of us is 100% correct on what is wrong and what needs to be done to fix it... I don't envy SE, trying to navigate this.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Fyi, SCH at the beginning of 5.0 had their Energy Drain removed alongside many other healers (mostly dps) actions. This is usually the point where a lot people refer to when they speak of great lobotomization of healers. But depending on the person you've talked to, some may even think StB being the start of all (hello stormblood lilies lol). That being said, removal of ED on SCH 'broke' the job. You've mentioned that it sucks to leave addersgall capped? SCH's AF too in that short period. Their reasoning was to allow SCH to focus more onto their healing duties... well look what they actually cooked up: not actually enough damage to heal, AF overcapped. Either ignore the stacks or dump all those overhealing Lustrates. Wow, great design choice (it's not). They eventually gave ED back.

I know you said you have different opinion about SGE/SCH differences which is totally fair, but to players like myself, the decision to necro 5.0 SCH into 6.0 SGE... just why? If you want to play today's SGE without actually being SGE, you can already do the same as a SCH since ShB: remove Energy Drain from your hotbar. That's it. Why waste an entire design space to create a brand new job that is more of a carbon copy of already existing job? They said it will be a healer that heals through DPS'ing and what they cooked up is Kardia that barely matters and is a shadow of SCH's old Embrace targeting plus clunkier? The only iteration of SGE that comes close to their vision ironically appears in the game 1 major patch later: 6.1 PvP SGE, and has been keeping to that vision closely to even today better than PvE's iteration.

EDIT: Also just sayin', SCHs who ignores their AF heals under all circumstances are straight up bad SCHs.

[ForsakenRoe]

I think the hardest issue they face is that even if they make changes to please one group of players, in doing so they are going to massively upset other players. So then they get stuck playing whack-a-mole trying to placate different groups of players. Try to please all, please none. But of course every single one of us is 100% correct on what is wrong and what needs to be done to fix it... I don't envy SE, trying to navigate this.

It's a hard line to balance, but I think it's possible by following a few specific prinicples:

1: Additional complexity should mostly be 'optional'. That is, when the job is updated, if someone wants to play the same way they did previously, their performance should be 'viable enough that they can still clear content'. This can be done by, for example, adding new damage actions that are stronger than the filler spell, but are only a small DPS gain, with the DPS checks of things like Savage being tuned such that 'ignoring the new buttons' does not cause enrages. Example: I'd give WHM a new button with a 15s CD - Water, later evolving into Banish. It would be 40p stronger than the Stone/Glare you have learned, so, ignoring it entirely would lose you just 160p per minute. Half a Glare. There's room in Savage DPS checks (and I'm looking at previous Savages since this one was an anomaly) to drop like... 30 Glares worth of damage, and still clear week 1. So, losing 1600p, or '5 and a bit Glares' (over the course of a 10min fight), is inconsequential to the check.

2: Additional actions should feed into the identity/lore of the job, not contradict it. Lore should bend to gameplay, if the gameplay requires it (and the gameplay is good), but the lore can also be used to guide the design for the gameplay. Something like Seraphism is strong. Very strong. But, it's also a very divisive action, due to the 'forced transformation' effect that gives us a white robe and angel wings (which blurs the line between SCH and WHM aesthetically), and it completely flies in the face of everything that made SCH, SCH previously (to the point where JP asked Y-P about it in an interview). AST Cards are an especially sore point IMO in their current form, as we have The Spear (a melee weapon) giving bonus damage to Ranged players, while The Arrow (a ranged projectile) is 'Healing received increased'. Very clearly, the gameplay was thought of first, and the lore was not considered at all.

3: Additional actions, when shown in the Job Action Trailer, should have 'cool' and 'eyecatching' VFX. Nothing sells the changes to players quite like the VFX of the action. People went nuts when SGE was shown because of 'how many attacks it had compared to SCH'. It showed Dosis (we use in ST), E.Dosis (we use in ST once per 30s), Phlegma (we use in ST once per 40s on average), Dyskrasia (we don't use in ST), Toxikon 2 (we use for mobility and only have 3 charges) and Pneuma (once per 2min and we use it for the healing). But because it showed 6 attacks, it gave the impression that it was some hyper-offense focused 'constant barrage of attacks' healer. But, look at previous Job Action Trailers, the most memorable things that people discuss after is usually the attacks. Misery, all of SGE's attacks, the new 92 attacks like Oracle and Psyche.

So now imagine a trailer that goes like this (based on the reworks I came up with):

WHM uses a few attacking and healing actions (ones we're used to seeing) to build a new gauge. They apply a barrier using Stoneskin, a returning action that now costs a Lily (thereby preparing Misery in the process).
At 50 gauge, they use a big healing move that modifies the gauge to have 3 'charges'. The clip ends with them firing off Misery, Quake, Tornado and Flood.

While multiple targets are being attacked (eg there's a tank on either side with a mob attacking them), SCH uses a bunch of tactical stuff, combining healing actions as we've come to expect (eg Recitation > Excogitation, Adloquium > Deployment) to manage both tanks' HP bars. While the SCH is putting up their DOTs (3 of them in total, Biolysis, Miasmalysis, Shadowflare) on one of the mobs, more enemies join the fray on that side. The SCH hits Chain Stratagem, and Baneful Impaction, not only applying the AOE DOT to the group, but spreading the original DOTs (And Chain) to the whole pack of enemies. They then use a new action, Synchronization Tactics (replacing Dissipation), to empower the Faerie, putting Fey Union on the tank handling one enemy, while the SCH and Faerie work together via Sync to focus heal the one with more enemies attacking.

AST throws up Divination and Oracle, but then follows up with playing a total of three different arcana (2 Major, one Minor) on the party. Additionally, in the midst of playing the cards, they burn up one Minor Arcana to the Royal Road, and empower the second Major Arcana they play. As the clip continues, the gauge shows that the cards are not just 'once per minute', but available far more often (eg Minor Arcana being every 15s), and are far more easy to manipulate via Redraw and Royal Road, making setting up for burst windows far more accessible. It also reveals that, rather than using just two cards from the Minor Arcana (there's 54 in total), we can use all 6 suits (Cups, Irons, Crowns, Rings, Staves and Knives), and that the gauge indicates that each Arcana has a 'favoured role' (EG The Bole is best used on a Tank, and the game indicates as such on the gauge)

SGE fires off two new attacks, one a line AOE and one a Cone AOE. They relentlessly attack the target, weaving in actions that augment Kardia (adding the stacks to the Job Gauge), and generate a purple gauge as the stacks are consumed via attacking. This purple gauge is later revealed to grant a pseudo-Enshroud, or Hypercharge from MCH, allowing the SGE to attack even faster (and thereby heal faster via Kardia). As the clip plays out, they use a 'Eukrasian Phlegma', Psyche, a regular Phlegma, augment themselves with the Purple Gauge, then rapid fire the Line, Cone, Line, Cone, and finally finish off with Pneuma, now reworked to be a strong finishing attack.

Having a Healer WOL for the poster job for an expansion would also be nice to see

[Kacho_Nacho]

You know, I'm really enjoying this discussion about Scholars and Sages. It gets right into the heart of the homogenization issue and...

Try to please all, please none. But of course every single one of us is 100% correct on what is wrong and what needs to be done to fix it... I don't envy SE, trying to navigate this.

*emphasis mine* Truer words were never typed. All of us here have experience playing a healer, regardless what that stoopid spreadsheet implied.

Hell, if you total all the time I have played a healer across various MMOs, I've been healing for approximately 20 years. I'm sure I'm not alone in this.

The fact is, we all know what it feels like when healers are designed right and when they are not. We feel it in our gut.

Of course, gamers* all have different ideas on how to fix the current state of healers in FFXIV. Some of them better than others but each has some merit.

Personally, I feel suggestions should be explored via a playtest server where Square Enix/Creative Studio III can obtain real data about the impact of these ideas. They'll be able to see what works and doesn't work quickly.

In addition, we're paying them to play the game. So, it's cheaper than hiring employees to do their playtesting for them.

But would Square Enix be open to the idea of a test server? Would they be open to the idea of allow more player input in the development process?

I hope they would be. It would be a win-win.

They get their data, save money, and their subscribers are more likely to continue playing a game in which they have input. We get a better game.

*Getting gamers to agree on anything is like herding a bunch of hyperactive kittens.

[YarnMage48]

*Getting gamers to agree on anything is like herding a bunch of hyperactive kittens.

Those words might be truer than mine, honestly.

So many years of healing! But to your point, I do think that's why I like Sage so much, and why I like the other classes that I like. They just feel right to me.

Getting players involved in playtesting changes in a fascinating idea. I'm not sure how they could implement it, but if they could, that could be really interesting. But I'm also not sure how that might overcome the general issue of none of us actually agreeing on anything. But for players to at least be more involved in the changes, that would be something.

[BunnyQueen]

I don't care about raiding, SE needs to un-nerf dungeons, strengthen the sync down so that people stop coasting the dungeons, and buff GCD heals so they are used more. Make healers have to heal more in dungeons. This is coming from a tank main.

[AmiableApkallu]

I don't care about raiding, SE needs to un-nerf dungeons, strengthen the sync down so that people stop coasting the dungeons, and buff GCD heals so they are used more. Make healers have to heal more in dungeons. This is coming from a tank main.

If an oGCD gets the job done, I'm using an oGCD.

I mean, as a WHM, there is no single-target GCD heal that's going to compete with Benediction, so if you want me to dip into my (non-lily/FFLogs-damage-neutral) GCD heals, you, as the tank, are going to have to start taking more damage.

[ForsakenRoe]

I don't care about raiding, SE needs to un-nerf dungeons, strengthen the sync down so that people stop coasting the dungeons, and buff GCD heals so they are used more. Make healers have to heal more in dungeons. This is coming from a tank main.

Using an old example of 'BIS geared SCH in Aetherfont, back in EW', some quick maths I did implied that for the first boss (the weird axolotl thing) to pressure us enough to not only burn through all of the SCH's OGCDs, but to also force them to use even a single GCD action (eg a Deploy Adlo) per minute, that boss would have to deal a blast of 20k raidwide damage, every 15 seconds, on top of everything it already was doing. But that's BIS (660 at the time), and the dungeon allows you in at an item level as low as 605.

The sheer amount of extra pressure that would be required, to make 'GCD heals used more', is A: far too high for casuals to surmount (especially if the increase is 'sudden', since it's very unlikely SE would go back and change old content), and also B: scales horrendously inversely with gear. What was a 'hard healing challenge that forces GCD healing' at I690 in Tender Valley (the pots at the end) or Strayborough (the dolls that spam raidwides at the end), became 'this needs only your OGCD kit to handle' at i700, and then later became 'this needs only parts of your OGCD kit to handle' with the crafted i710. Each of these jumps in how much less GCD healing was needed, was just 10 item levels. Our power, our output, scales far too fast for there to be an 'increase to healing required' that feels good at all gear levels, and the massive difference in output that those 55 ILVLs give in the Aetherfont are what make it impossible. Either the challenge is tuned to feel good at 605 in Aetherfont, and 660 crushes it (which is how it currently seems to be designed), or it's tuned for an item level higher than 605, and 605 is soulcrushingly hard to clear with (or even inpossible, if the player is not of sufficient skill).

So, I think the solution can use 'healing required is increased' as a factor, sure. But it can't be the only factor