#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Rithy255]

I would absolutely trade self sustain for better mitigation, shield/reduction instead of raw healing, that's a compromise I can happily accept.
I doubt WAR will complain if you trade their healing for shields, especially in raiding where self healing becomes less valuable.
The current content also doesn't do enough damage, if you check the FRU clear it survives the LB tank check with an LB2.

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

If 4 divine veils and clemency (which is cure 2 that you can't spam as much but heals you 50%) can replace the entire healer role, it's a issue with how fights are designed and not the roles itself.

Clemency also funnily enough wouldn't be a issue if tanks and healers had similar damage outputs because having 4 paladins spamming it 40+ times should make hard fights pretty much impossible to clear.

[Aravell]

Paladin is also a straight up superior healer thanks to Clemency & Divine Veil, especially when you have 4 of them.
Removing Clemency or not, sacrificing the job identity for stopping the 4 paladin clear is a debate I leave to you, it's a healer GCD after all.

I think Clemency itself is fine, the 4 PLD clear is more a problem with the incoming damage than PLD itself. If you can clear by spamming Clemency, then that means you can also just spam Cure II at those points, that's far too little damage in what's supposed to be a difficult fight.

The largest problem is still that the dev team views more healing as just higher damage, so we end up with a ton of mitigation checks but very few actual heal checks. If we can get more actual heal checks, that would also solve groups completely removing the healer role because then you'd actually need at least one healer to clear.

[Alice_Rivers]

Clemency is an interesting point, as you rightly point out it is both a healer GCD matter and an archetypal PLD ability across most of fiction. I'd suggest that there is room for both with several possible compromises; it could be weaker and/or have a longer cooldown and/or be weighed against new/higher MP costs for other PLD abilities. Personally I favour extending the cooldown a bit so that it's not spam-able anymore, maybe 20s? I don't know, let it be a valuable party tool to cover for a mistake by a party member without being too much.

[Shurrikhan]

Clemency is an interesting point, as you rightly point out it is both a healer GCD matter and an archetypal PLD ability across most of fiction. I'd suggest that there is room for both with several possible compromises; it could be weaker and/or have a longer cooldown and/or be weighed against new/higher MP costs for other PLD abilities. Personally I favour extending the cooldown a bit so that it's not spam-able anymore, maybe 20s? I don't know, let it be a valuable party tool to cover for a mistake by a party member without being too much.

The flexibility of the cast seems pretty essential to its flavor, tbh, though I don't see why it'd need quite so low a cost as it does now when PLD regens 3200 MP per full combo's time (apart from during Req GCDs).

I'd rather just have more to heal and, perhaps more importantly, both greater healer damage possible and/or more of an offensive cost to tank sustain, such that a healer-less pair or mass of tanks is just not nearly so able to go ham, adding further rDPS cost to fully opting out of an entire role.

Food for thought, though: What could the dynamics of a tank-less comp even look like? Would there even be any way to salvage that into something fun? Dropping a healer, of all roles, does make sense, as it's essentially removing one's safety margin (albeit less so with PLD-stacking). But you'd have to have far less passive tank mit (and scale TBs around that) and greater power in healer mit and DPS personals, etc., for it to offer enough control between rezzes to not just feel like a cluster****, I'd imagine.

Full transparency: I like being able to shuffle around role allocations. I feel like it helps keep the inter-role economy of outputs more in check in ways that tend, however incidentally, to maintain job distinction over mere role-fixtures/-templates. That said, I'd hate if a role or job were consistently dispensable -- say, if RDM could only ever be a Rez Mage or a healer a wet wipe, or for one's tasks to seemingly boil down to just voking once and then being a DPS with extra buttons to hit when cued by giant red construction warning VFX.

[Azurarok]

Food for thought, though: What could the dynamics of a tank-less comp even look like? Would there even be any way to salvage that into something fun? Dropping a healer, of all roles, does make sense, as it's essentially removing one's safety margin (albeit less so with PLD-stacking). But you'd have to have far less passive tank mit (and scale TBs around that) and greater power in healer mit and DPS personals, etc., for it to offer enough control between rezzes to not just feel like a cluster****, I'd imagine.

I think the biggest point that makes it difficult to cut out tanks is the lack of aggro management tools, followed by just being able to survive tankbusters with how much of a gap there is in defense/hp stats between tanks and the other roles these days, though maybe a team of SCHs can still manage that part.

[Supersnow845]

Why should content be excluded from balance and design discussions because it’s easy

I have raided ultimates in the past, I can still enjoy a dungeon if you give me a well designed job like PCT.

Saying dungeon design and balance doesn’t matter works both ways, if it’s totally fine for the healer to just suck it up and deal with being an inferior role why can’t tanks suck it up and not have broken AOE self healing. If you ask for the latter though tank mains will tell you to stop taking away their fun despite dungeon design and balance not mattering when it comes to healer fun

[Rithy255]

Why should content be excluded from balance and design discussions because it’s easy

I have raided ultimates in the past, I can still enjoy a dungeon if you give me a well designed job like PCT.

Saying dungeon design and balance doesn’t matter works both ways, if it’s totally fine for the healer to just suck it up and deal with being an inferior role why can’t tanks suck it up and not have broken AOE self healing. If you ask for the latter though tank mains will tell you to stop taking away their fun despite dungeon design and balance not mattering when it comes to healer fun

You clearly miss the point, it's easy to clear fast on solo healers and tanks, the reason why you pick tank is because of more damage lol. I don't get why this is hard to understand that dungeons in general are just boring and easy and again you can clear on most comps.

It sure does matter both ways! I find it annoying that healers can make me using defensives feel invalid in bosses because they spam mit/shields/healing on me, but it is what it is the content is designed for everyone its not really designed for people who want a challenge, news flash tank is also pretty boring in dungeons.

If you want to have a fun healing time on healer go play with 3 dps and 1 healer! problem solved it won't even take long.

If you nerfed tanks to the point where healers actually had to heal a lot in dungeons then they'd be melee dps lol

[Supersnow845]

You clearly miss the point, it's easy to clear fast on solo healers and tanks, the reason why you pick tank is because of more damage lol. I don't get why this is hard to understand that dungeons in general are just boring and easy and again you can clear on most comps.

It sure does matter both ways! I find it annoying that healers can make me using defensives feel invalid in bosses because they spam mit/shields/healing on me, but it is what it is the content is designed for everyone its not really designed for people who want a challenge, news flash tank is also pretty boring in dungeons.

If you want to have a fun healing time on healer go play with 3 dps and 1 healer! problem solved it won't even take long.

If you nerfed tanks to the point where healers actually had to heal a lot in dungeons then they'd be melee dps lol

I’m responding to your point that “dungeon balance shouldn’t matter”. Not the fact it’s possible to 1H3D a dungeon

That basic premise alone is flawed, even in simple content like dungeons each angle of the trinity should have a place to shine and a way to meaningfully contribute. You immediately go “just 1H3D” which basically amounts to “yeah healers can feel impactful in dungeons………when there isn’t a tank”.

Meaningful contribution of an entire role in a piece of content shouldn’t be contingent on another role being bad just because said content is easy

[Rithy255]

I’m responding to your point that “dungeon balance shouldn’t matter”. Not the fact it’s possible to 1H3D a dungeon

That basic premise alone is flawed, even in simple content like dungeons each angle of the trinity should have a place to shine and a way to meaningfully contribute. You immediately go “just 1H3D” which basically amounts to “yeah healers can feel impactful in dungeons………when there isn’t a tank”.

Meaningful contribution of an entire role in a piece of content shouldn’t be contingent on another role being bad just because said content is easy

I don't think dungeon balance should matter, it's content designed around the msq it's meant to be clearable, non standard comps clearing it is fine and is actually pretty interesting to me, I enjoy doing tankless dungeon runs or healerless runs for fun. Not all content needs the "trinity system" especially the easier stuff. It's also "yeah tanks can feel impactful in dungeons when there isn't a healer" can also apply here, as a tank player i don't really care that healers can clear dungeons without me lol. even if 1 healer and 3 dps was dungeon "meta" for speed runs I would go "oh neat".

Problem is Tank/healer aren't really both needed to meaningful contribute one can contribute more then the other and the dungeon is still easy, honestly both can play really bad and still easily clear, so it makes sense that one good player can clear on either role it's meant dungeons shouldn't require healers to be intensely trying and learning damage profiles in a dungeon. At the end of the day is entry level content, I'm not going to be too upset that it can be cleared without the trinity system.

Does this mean I don't think healer's shouldn't be more fun, absolutely not I think both tanks and healers are suffering because the game has been so DPS focused to the point these roles have been ignored over the years and been given defensives, healing ect. that they don't really need, but even if you tuned healer and tank in ways that made them more balanced between each other dungeons would still be doable by non standard solo support comps, if you manage to make it where tanks and healers have to contribute to the point of try harding in a dungeon then good job now casual players will not want to pick up tank and healer for having too much responsibility, which they should have... In difficult content not dungeons...

[Supersnow845]

I don't think dungeon balance should matter, it's content designed around the msq it's meant to be clearable, non standard comps clearing it is fine and is actually pretty interesting to me, I enjoy doing tankless dungeon runs or healerless runs for fun. Not all content needs the "trinity system" especially the easier stuff. It's also "yeah tanks can feel impactful in dungeons when there isn't a healer" can also apply here, as a tank player i don't really care that healers can clear dungeons without me lol. even if 1 healer and 3 dps was dungeon "meta" for speed runs I would go "oh neat".

Problem is Tank/healer aren't really both needed to meaningful contribute one can contribute more then the other and the dungeon is still easy, honestly both can play really bad and still easily clear, so it makes sense that one good player can clear on either role it's meant dungeons shouldn't require healers to be intensely trying and learning damage profiles in a dungeon. At the end of the day is entry level content, I'm not going to be too upset that it can be cleared without the trinity system.

Does this mean I don't think healer's shouldn't be more fun, absolutely not I think both tanks and healers are suffering because the game has been so DPS focused to the point these roles have been ignored over the years and been given defensives, healing ect. that they don't really need, but even if you tuned healer and tank in ways that made them more balanced between each other dungeons would still be doable by non standard solo support comps, if you manage to make it where tanks and healers have to contribute to the point of try harding in a dungeon then good job now casual players will not want to pick up tank and healer for having too much responsibility, which they should have... In difficult content not dungeons...

If “not all content needs the trinity system” then the game shouldn’t functionally enforce the trinity system in all content that’s the problem

If I queue for a roulette that roulette needs a healer to pop. Ergo the experience of the healer shouldn’t be contingent on the tank being garbage or vice versa. This isn’t about attempting to block non standard comps. This is the fact that the pretty enforced standard comp should give meaningful ways to shine for each role and right now healers entirely lack that if the tank is half way competent

You shouldn’t need high levels of competence for both roles just to clear a dungeon but neither should one role being competent basically make another role functionally redundant. Because you have to remember while 1H3D is possible tanks remove any meaningful impact healers can have in a dungeon even in a standard comp. You could alleviate this by giving healers something else to do but then why then is the trinity tank healer DPS and not Tank+healer, DPS and “something else”