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  1. #1
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2,382
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    The idea behind it was likely inspired by WOW's Holy Priest and their Holy Words CD reduction system.

    WOW examples:

    For example, Casting Flash Heal or Heal (Cure1/2) reduces the CD on Power Word Serenity (Tetra). Casting Smite (Glare) reduces the CD on Power Word Chastise (1min CD damage with a stun, we don't have an equivalent). Casting Prayer of Healing (kinda like a targetted Medica1, but a lot weaker) or Renew (Regen) reduces the CD on Power Word Sanctify (ground targetted Cure3, bit of an odd one).

    But then the real depth in the WOW version of the system is how there's synergies on top of those interactions. Cosmic Ripple is a talent that causes an Assize-like burst of healing emit from you whenever the CD on PW Serenity or PW Sanctify finishes, incentivizing you to keep using them, and then using the things that make them come back faster. Empyrean Blaze causes your Chastise to empower your Holy Fire (a second, 7s long super-strong DOT) to skip its 10s CD and allows it to stack multiple times on the same enemy, allowing you to deal good burst damage with it (if it's safe to spend GCDs on applying it). Revitalizing Prayers causes Prayer of Healing (the scuffed Cure3) to have a chance to also apply Regen to the allies it hits, and those extra Regen procs also count as 'casts' so they also trigger the CDR on Sanctify.

    And the biggest one is Power Word Salvation, a TWELVE minute CD that, in FF terms, heals like a Medica1, applies 2 stacks of Excogitation and one stack of Regen, and does this to the entire raid (eg in an Alliance Raid it'd hit all 24 players). Each time you use Power Word Serenity or Sanctify, the CD of Salvation is reduced by 15s. So it's a CDR system on top of a CDR system, and this means that the CD is effectively closer to 4min rather than the full 12min. But because the action has such a long native CD, it's allowed to have such a crazy sounding effect, which increases how impactful it feels when you do use it.



    I think that the SB system wasn't a bad idea, in itself. It had implementation issues. First was SE's fear of attaching anything interesting to the damage buttons. We could have had, for example, 'Fluid Aura (if they hadn't removed the damage from it) reduces the CD on Tetra by 2s', or 'Aero 2/Aero 3 DOT ticks decrease the CD of Benediction', but instead everything was hamfisted onto the healing GCDs. Second, was that they tied every Lily spending action, to the same resource (the Lilies), causing the player to feel like they have less agency in what they want the CDR to apply to. It became more a case of 'I use this because I need it now, and if it happens to get a CDR, so be it'. You never used Tetra 'because I want to make use of the CDR of the Lilies', you used it because you needed it at that time, and the Lilies happen to trigger on it. And because the game's combat is so scripted, the CDR on these healing tools was ultimately 'un-noticeable', if you had Asylum planned out to be used at 0:30s, and at 2:30s, it didn't matter if its CD was reduced or not, you were going to leave it ready to use until 2:30 either way. You could literally hide the Job Gauge from your UI and still play just fine, because the system was so... ignoreable. And thirdly, because everything was tied to the same Lily gauge, one 'choice' (if you can call it a choice, since everything auto-triggered the effect if it was available to use) became THE choice: Assize. Because it did damage and the others did not.

    Which just goes back to the old talking point: SE's insistence on trying to show that Healers don't need to press damage buttons for any reason ever, is closing a lot of design options off. Rather than trying to make designs that allow for Healers to simply ignore their damage buttons, wouldn't it make far more sense to have those damage buttons (and their interactions) ultimately be 'unrequired' to clear most content (via intelligently balancing their potencies etc.), and then add those small interactions that incentivize (without forcing) the player to at least experiment with dealing damage? For example, if there's a simple interaction of 'Stone/Glare extends the duration of Asylum by 1s', wouldn't that incentivise a player who's normally deathly scared of letting people die to think 'oh, Asylum is down so it's probably safe for a little while, and if I use Stone I can make the Asylum (and therefore the safety time) last longer' at least a little bit?

    The objective with Healer design should be to get players to try dealing damage, at least once. Because overcoming the mental barrier and going from zero damage spells, to at least one, is a bigger challenge to mentally overcome compared to any amount beyond that. If you can get a player to start using damage abilities even a little, it would reveal to them how little healing is actually required and how much time there actually is to deal damage, when people aren't standing in orange. And then that opens the way to them saying 'okay, there's actually a lot more time for me to use these damage buttons, and take advantage of their interactions (like extending Asylum, reducing Tetra CD, etc) than I first thought'.
    (0)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 02-06-2025 at 08:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,874
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    The idea behind it was likely inspired by WOW's Holy Priest and their Holy Words CD reduction system.

    I think that the SB system wasn't a bad idea, in itself. It had implementation issues.
    With even just the slight changes to the system's procedure, more impactful tuning, and ideally a revision of WHM's abilities (or simply some flat seconds' reduction as well as percentile) to put their CDRs more on par with each other... it actually could have been far more solid than modern Holy Priest, even.

    Every GCD heal, not just up to 3 per minute of a certain type that would require additional buttons each, would have given a refund in % uptime-value-equivalent potency, but usable as either offense and/or sustain, all also increasing the APM of said WHM, seemingly making it more intense in healing-intense situations. And since GCD heals were actually a thing back then, that system would actually have some legs to stand on.

    Functionality Change: Lilies can be used to "rush" 4s + 20% of any CD (33.3% of a Benison, 30% of an Assize, 26.7% of a Tetra, 24.4% of an Asylum, 22.2% of a Benediction). CDs now show a second radial dial, showing the extent of the maximum time by which they can be rushed and the number of Lilies required to reach that maximum. If a skill is already cooling, one can hit that skill again to spend up to 3 Lilies towards its cooldown reduction immediately, freeing up space to accumulate more Lilies.

    ...Granted, all that could also have as easily been performed by a simple gauge mechanic spent on, say... an Invocation of <Element> oGCD, whereby one can choose between suppressing (flat + % potency reduction until fully consumed), damaging, or CCing an enemy or shielding+armoring, hasting, or cleansing+healing an ally, based on one's prior action (between Water, Wind, and Earth), or what have you. It shouldn't require 3 new buttons just to provide a bit of raid-buff exploitation --around which to be balanced anyways-- and mobility. Just as the current Lily mechanic following Glare casts of 2 or fewer seconds (providing weave space) could be provided by as little as Misery and an adjustment to Thin Air itself, rather than also needing Solace and Rapture. At least the Holy Priest version has an initial and separate use for its charged-up nuke heals as CDs; ours provide at most mobility that is typically rendered redundant by the 1.5s Glare cast-time or, at most healing intensive, Regen's doing almost double the healing of Solace.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Doomed_Raven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2024
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    123
    Character
    Doomed Raven
    World
    Phantom
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 93
    Maybe someone who's played this much longer can answer this.

    I've just started getting into healing as a relatively new player, and WHM is a cool class, makes PoTD 51-60 a breeze. But regarding attacks which don't really have a rotation, why is there no water attack?

    As a conjurer you do three trials (earth, wind and water) to learn the elements a conjurer/WHM will use to heal and if needed fight. But you only have stone, aero and unaspected attacks.

    On the other hand BLM uses fire and ice.

    Where'd water go!? SE should add water attacks to the rotation maybe and add some mechanic to cycle between the 3 elements for more damage, using the aero as a weave to proc. Might make it a bit more varied fighting as a WHM. (I can't speak for other healer classes, I've only done a little Scholar).
    (0)

  4. #4
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    4,019
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Doomed_Raven View Post
    Maybe someone who's played this much longer can answer this.

    I've just started getting into healing as a relatively new player, and WHM is a cool class, makes PoTD 51-60 a breeze. But regarding attacks which don't really have a rotation, why is there no water attack?

    As a conjurer you do three trials (earth, wind and water) to learn the elements a conjurer/WHM will use to heal and if needed fight. But you only have stone, aero and unaspected attacks.

    On the other hand BLM uses fire and ice.

    Where'd water go!? SE should add water attacks to the rotation maybe and add some mechanic to cycle between the 3 elements for more damage, using the aero as a weave to proc. Might make it a bit more varied fighting as a WHM. (I can't speak for other healer classes, I've only done a little Scholar).
    CNJ used to learn a button called "Fluid Aura" at that lv15 quest "Trial by Water", a relatively short oGCD that makes you toss a water sphere at your target. Depending on the expac, they did different things because SE kept changing.... or rather, nerfing them as the game grew older. It used to do damage and push-back attack. Later on they lose their damage. Sometime later again they become a ST 6s Bind button. The button was finally removed by the dawn of Endwalker launch. So now you learn.... no water---wait, actually you do learn 'watery' actions but you get them at lv86: Aquaveil but you use them rather infrequently. Maybe if you squint harder, Divine Benison, Thin Air, and Asylum VFXs too looks 'watery' enough? lmao.

    EDIT: I'd also argue that we ended up not using neither earth and wind anymore beyond lv72. They're all white sparkly stuffs (Glare, Dia, and Holy). Even the buttons where we can easily be given earth/wind aesthetic for what they do... also don't. I.e. Divine Benison, and Divine Grace/Caress could be earth as a call back to the GCD shield "Stoneskin/Stoneskin II", while Assize & Aetherial Shift could probably be the wind representation as they look 'windy' enough if you squint hard enough lol... but no, they're all just... again, white sparkly stuffs. Not even their SFX suggests so...

    Come to think of it, funny how water of all aspects becomes the only one that at leasts 'survives' through the butchering of their conjury root going into this expac, lol.
    (0)
    Last edited by Rein_eon_Osborne; 02-07-2025 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Maltothoris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    746
    Character
    Malto Thoris
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Well, we got the live letter coming but it will just be info and most likely we'll get the big info on job adjustments on part 2. Also most likely if there are any changes, it would be towards the dps.

    Edit: My bad on that part.
    (0)
    Last edited by Maltothoris; 02-07-2025 at 11:56 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,832
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Job changes aren’t coming in 7.2 they are coming in 8.0 (if they come at all)

    7.2 is for encounter changes as besides arguably honey b lovely DT’s current content isnt actually different it’s just faster and does more damage (which was arguably 99% of the problem with EW’s content)
    (0)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

  7. #7
    Player
    Azurarok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Posts
    1,126
    Character
    Medim Azurarok
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    I'm kinda hoping we have some level of changes implemented around the lv92 skills since even JP seems somewhat on board with getting some better use out of them, but we'll see... probably when the actual patch drops. Them discussing PvE job adjustments in a pll seems as likely as getting a 3-liner in wondrous tails lately
    (0)

  8. #8
    Player
    Kes13a's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,842
    Character
    Etherea Stormaire
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    I fully expect the LL to be more of the vein that "yes, icebergs were sighted, but we are in an unsinkable ship! I have ordered more steam!"

    after all, Wuk Lamat was well loved
    (4)
    #FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

  9. #9
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,832
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    The only thing we can hope for for 7.x is just that they will free up the actions at 92 (which they won’t)

    Either making them unlock with the action that procs them (so WHM at 30, AST at 50, SCH at 66 and SGE at any level) or change them to unlock with a more common action (baneful with aetherflow or an extra cast with dissipation, oracle with dollar store aetherflow, glare 4 with assize or thin air or something)

    But even then they have shown no commitment to actually changing PVE design for the jobs at all this expansion
    (0)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

  10. #10
    Player
    Aravell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    2,041
    Character
    J'thaldi Rhid
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    The only thing we can hope for for 7.x is just that they will free up the actions at 92 (which they won’t)

    Either making them unlock with the action that procs them (so WHM at 30, AST at 50, SCH at 66 and SGE at any level) or change them to unlock with a more common action (baneful with aetherflow or an extra cast with dissipation, oracle with dollar store aetherflow, glare 4 with assize or thin air or something)

    But even then they have shown no commitment to actually changing PVE design for the jobs at all this expansion
    Well, putting job design aside, they're not even really dealing well with job balance, which could be as simple as tweaking some numbers instead of redesigning an entire kit.

    MCH still useless and they still insist on bringing everything up to PCT instead of nerfing the one out-of-line job, which just causes unending powercreep.
    (1)
    Last edited by Aravell; 02-07-2025 at 12:28 PM.

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