#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Lorika]

The dps having some healing br ok

So a team like the following is ok? : War, GNB, Monk, Picto, Dancer and RDM....

Sorry, but as a healer i feel just completly useless with a party like that.

[ForsakenRoe]

I don't understand why people want to add layer upon layer upon layer of mechanic to fix healing. It's not the first time iwonder why, but it's the first time i voice it.
i think all your idea aren't the solution at all.

You just want to add new code into a game know to have a spaghetti code for years.... It's asking for bug, lag, dev taking even more time to to things, risk of mistake making some fight too hard and being nerfed later, rendering thoses mechanic near meaningless on other fight, even more unbalance between jobs etc... etc...

Why wanting to take the risk to make things even worse when the answer, the solution, the fix is way more simple : Tank and DPS just need to have their mit, self-heal/heal and potency nerfed. it's the most simple and efficient way to fix healing.

SE just need to roll back on the powercreep they created.

I don't think it's a good idea to consider 'SE can't code without making a spaghetti mess' as a factor in whether an idea has merit or not. If we did, nothing would ever get added again, look at how jank most additions to the game have been. Glamour as a system was a hack job back in 2.3 and we're still paying the price for its implementation, for example, and since then rather than fixing it to work better, they've bandaid fixed the storage issue with Glamour Dressers. Nor do I think 'what if one job is better at solving the mechanic than another' is a factor, because A: To avoid 'one job is better than another' you'd have to have every job be entirely identical in their designs, and B: SE has made situations where one job is clearly better than another at solving a mechanic quite regularly, so long as every job can clear I don't think it matters so much if one job has a slight advantage at a mechanic. Look at AST in P3S vs WHM (which actually brought AST play rates up to WHM levels for that one fight), look at a great many fights that have 5 tankbusters, where WAR (and only WAR) can Holmgang 3 of them (this happened again with M3S, so it's not like that was just a Stormblood thing).

I hear a lot of people saying that 'the solution to make healers more engaging is to make us heal more'. The idea I posted would make people either heal more, or use Esuna more, both of which are 'what healers should be doing' according to some players. It being a separate system, I'd argue, would allow for more granularity on adjusting how much damage it does/how hard the fight is, not less. If SE were to just do a change like 'nerf healing power by 50%, nerf incoming damage by 25%' (such that we're effectively weaker at healing vs now), I think that runs at least the same risk of 'fight is too hard' (if not more), but also there's less dials to adjust to change the fight difficulty to a more satisfying level than current gameplay (but still clearable). Consider, as we get more gear currently, the healing challenge dissipates, because our heals get stronger AND the damage we take goes down (due to Defence/MagicDefence stats on gear). But an external mechanic like the suggested one, doesn't necessarily have to interact with the defensive stats. The mechanic that applies 50k of Aetherblight in Week 1 progression, could still apply 50k in full BIS, our healing power would go up, but the value to heal would not go down (unlike currently), making the content more resistant to 'being outgeared' in that regard

At this point, I don't even think complete removal of Tank/DPS party-mit/selfheal tools would solve the issue. Take WAR. Back in HW, they had Equilibrium (which they didn't want to use because in Deliverance it restored TP) and Inner Beast (which they didn't want to use because that's a Fell Cleave you're missing out on). If WAR were taken back to that point in terms of their party-mit/self healing capabilities, I don't think that really solves the Healer gameplay issues. Instead of using 5 of my SGE tools to get through a dungeon pull, maybe I use 7, or 8. But I have like 9 total tools, so my gameplay is still 'OGCD bullshit go' and then spam Dyskrasia. We can't just blame it all on BloodWhetting and the like, our own Healing kits are part of the problem too. I mean, look at DRK, back then in HW they had Dark Arts Abyssal Drain, which was functionally similar to what we now know as Bloodwhetting. But it wasn't really an issue back then, and it IS an issue now. What changed? How much extra stuff we have access to with an additional 40 levels of kit would be a factor I expect

So a team like the following is ok? : War, GNB, Monk, Picto, Dancer and RDM....

Sorry, but as a healer i feel just completly useless with a party like that.

That's a lot of healing and mitigation across that party, yes. Now imagine we remove all of the mits, and raidwide healing actions from that team. So, WAR loses SIO and Nascent Flash (they can only heal themselves with BW/Equil), GNB can only self-target Aurora and loses Heart of Light. Monk loses the Earth's Reply heal (it can keep Mantra since it's been there since ARR), PCT loses Star Prism's heal and Tempera Grassa (it can keep the self-shield), DNC loses Curing Waltz, Improvization and Shield Samba, and RDM loses Magick Barrier's 10% mit (it can keep the healing+ since it's basically another Mantra). Okay, with all of that stuff removed, how do I as a healer, tackle Worqor Lar Dor EX? TBH, basically the same, but I press a Medica3/Aspected Helios every now and then to keep up with the DOT.

So, after all of that, the net result of the changes listed is that our gameplay now includes an occasional Medica3 that wasn't there before. I don't think that'd really solve much. Plus, old content has been designed with those mits on non-Healers in mind, so removing them means having to go back and check old content to make sure it can be cleared with the changed job kits, and the added pressure on the healers to do all of the mitting/shielding, and that sounds to me like it might cause 'risk of mistake making some fight too hard and being nerfed later'

[Lorika]

Now imagine we remove all of the mits, and raidwide healing actions from that team.

Where did i say remove?
I said nerf, it's completly different.

[Shurrikhan]

Where did i say remove?
I said nerf, it's completly different.

I think their point was that to have a meaningful effect on typical parties' GCD healing usage, you would essentially need to nerf the likes of Shake it Off, Clemency, Divine Veil, Passage of Arms, Curing Waltz, Reply if Earth, etc., across that comp to the point that their holders would rather not have them bloating their bars at all -- i.e. effectively removing them.

Which then means the nerf/gutting/removal would be likely be an incomplete solution anyways (as even with the nerfs we'd still spend the vast majority of our time spamming Malefic) despite stripping a form of engagement from said jobs and reducing the number of ways non-healers can differentiate their support/utility from one another.

So we'd end up degrading gameplay elsewhere just to have less of an effect than we'd have by just... increasing effective sustain requirements with the least possible side effect (e.g., through a greater number of damage events rather than the damage of each event).

[Tigore]

Roe was brainstorming an extreme example and said such an example would probably just barely help increase the healing we need to do by itself. We might also need to advocate the removal of some of our own oGCD heals and cooldowns in addition to the extreme nerfs on the tanks and DPS if we only go down the path to only nerfing. As such, increasing the encounter damage looked like a better idea to focus on first so the nerfs do not have to be severe.

As for the 25s cooldown Provoke, the only reason I can think of would be because the Warcraft tanks once started ping ponging a boss on a big arena when the boss was entering their damage plus phase. They understood that it was hell on melee DPS, so they started to burn through their defensive cooldowns first. Once both tanks did so, they started playing piggy-in-the-middle and favored ranged DPS more to reduce the effect this would have on the DPS. Blizzard had to add in a taunt immunity after maybe 5 quick consecutive swaps over time to prevent the boss looking foolish running back and forth. It was either that or make the boss fiendishly fast with the running.

Other than that, I would like to see some actual tank swaps for our encounters with 2 tanks. The off tank is 90% of the time just another DPS since they are just there in case something screws up to kill the main tank. We do have tank busters hitting both of them, but it generally just happens on the "final trial boss". Even our 12th normal final boss from our last expansion 8 player raid didn't really do anything specifically important for the off tank. I was able to use things like Nascent Flash on the main tank, but that was it and it likely compounded the issue even more with healers almost not needing to heal the tanks. Shirk and turning off tank stance was used quite often since I was able to out pace the threat of other tanks half the time. I elected to use the healing utilities like Nascent Flash more so when someone was getting raised.

[Tigore]

Nerfing the tank and DPS party mitigation would get the job done too. Although ... we immediately get met with resistance and backlash if that is the only method we use ... >.> It was what ForsakenRoe mentioned, so she thought that buffing the encounter damage more would be accepted more or not noticed as much. It may seem like a roundabout way to fix the problem, but maybe it can add some more new mechs for us to have fun with if Square can pull it off. Plus using only a full on nerf might have unintended consequences of making the easy soloing stuff more harder than intended. The solo instances would be okay with that WoL self heal buff, but other stuff like solo Hunts, Treasure Chests and FATEs may be a different story.

I can see the other side of it where the tanks and DPS do want to help somewhat with the damage taken too. We could find a midway point where all the roles can do something to help solve a mech. These are some other ideas to consider too. We may still need to consider slightly nerfing some mitigations and self heals, but it might only be a small amount if the encounters are actually hurting the tanks and party members enough. After all, accidentally making the self heals as pitiful as the 1K critical Physick SMN GCD heal is not a curse I want to inflict on anyone.

1. Increase the frequency of tank busters

The fact that the tanks can kitchen sink cooldowns and still be fine is a problem I can read. Typically, tanks are supposed to stagger their cooldown use one at a time for longevity rather than taking almost no damage for 10 - 20 seconds, then suddenly get hammered afterwards. It may still have to be frequent enough so the tanks don't just simply provoke swap every minute and still kitchen sink it. If we do want swaps, Warcraft often times used a stacking vuln debuff that lasted maybe 30 seconds that required switching at around 3. The consequences for messing up the swap too early or not doing so usually involves taking more than double damage or flat out dying at a full stack debuff. Yes, the Warcraft Paladins were able to bubble off the debuff (Divine Shield) and right click it off immediately, but it was a 5 minute cooldown.

2. Increase the boss' auto attack damage

This can be a simpler solution to encourage more use of spells like Regen and Aspected Benefic to counter it. The occasional Sacred Soil -> Lustrate and Taurochole -> Druchole can work to help mitigate this if it is doing significant enough damage to worry about it.

[ForsakenRoe]

sry for doublepost the other one is very long

Nerfing the tank and DPS party mitigation would get the job done too. Although ... we immediately get met with resistance and backlash if that is the only method we use ... >.> It was what ForsakenRoe mentioned, so she thought that buffing the encounter damage more would be accepted more or not noticed as much. It may seem like a roundabout way to fix the problem, but maybe it can add some more new mechs for us to have fun with if Square can pull it off.

1. Increase the frequency of tank busters

2. Increase the boss' auto attack damage

We've seen in this very thread, many Tank players have not taken kindly to the suggestion that their fun (read: healing for their whole HP bar each GCD with Bloodwhetting) has to be impacted, in order for the Healer role to have more fun added to it. An external system would stand a much stronger opportunity to be accepted as a way to rein in the power level of these non-Healer actions, without directly reining them in via numerical tuning or outright removal.

Here's an example: Think about Interruptible Actions. The first pack in Dohn Mheg, you can Interrupt one of the enemies to prevent it from empowering one of the plant thingys. Or Hermes in Ktisis Hyperborea. If the Tank does the Interrupt, the amount of healing we have to do as Healers is directly affected, they do less damage because the cast was Interrupted and they didn't get a damage+ buff. But we never say 'damn that Tank's taking all the fun out of my job by Interrupting that add' because it's an external mechanic that is dedicated to being 'Tank gameplay'. So, if such a thing existed for Healers, an external mechanic that any role can try to participate in and help out, but only a Healer can truly resolve (EG a Tank can apply a barrier to block the effect on themselves, but they cannot get all 8 players every time it's applied due to the CD), then I think that stands to be much more accepted by all sides of the playerbase, as Healers would feel they've got a mechanic dedicated to their role to solve, and NonHealers would feel that they can use their utilities to help out at times (without solving the mechanic completely on their own). But EG: in a situation where A BRD clears their own Aetherblight because they used Warden's Paean on themselves, I expect they'll think 'hell yeh I was able to use this utility for this mechanic that's cool', not 'damn this sucks why can't I use this action on everyone and do the healer's job for them'

As for 1: I've never understood why we have a CD of 25s on Provoke. If it were say, 10s, it'd allow us to have more fast paced tankswapping in certain encounters. Not that every fight has to have faster-paced tankswapping, but it'd be nice to have the design option available

As for 2: If an enemy were to apply 50% of their attack as actual damage, and 50% as the Aetherblight debuff, we could see a fight design where the tanks have to swap because of the building debuff, and once they swap, the tank who has aggro will be building up Aetherblight from taking autoattacks while the 'offtank' would be healing their own Aetherblight away with their selfhealing tools. And this would allow certain design elements, such as how WAR's Nascent Flash allows them to heal both their own Aetherblight, but also helps their co-tank's Aetherblight level stay lower (meaning they don't have to swap back as fast). Or Cover from an OT PLD could allow the MT to get some extra seconds to clear some of their Aetherblight (and not build more because the PLD's taking it), extending their time as the MT for a bit longer, etc.

[Lorika]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground
Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.
Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind, make some CD longer, remove some potency, remove some stack.

Make the skills still usefull, but less powerfull.

I mean, right now, eveyrthing is done for transforming FFXIV into GWXIV

[Supersnow845]

Then again, i said nerf, not nerfing to the ground
Since Shake it off was took an exemple, just revert back to the way it was at the start : without the group heal.
Remove the level 94 boost of Second wind, make some CD longer, remove some potency, remove some stack.

Make the skills still usefull, but less powerfull.

I mean, right now, eveyrthing is done for transforming FFXIV into GWXIV

Nerfing the regen off shake it off would do nothing to change the nature of the skill for example

That’s the problem here, damage is already so low that tanks and DPS having ANYTHING is going to immediately infringe on the healers

The only thing that would be “enough” to fix the healers with the current damage output is to delete everything off the non healers. Even with no regen (or even upfront heal) on SIO that’s one less GCD heal or mitigation the healer has to apply and with how little damage comes out that’s just less actions for the healer

[Absurdity]

Nerfing the regen off shake it off would do nothing to change the nature of the skill for example

That’s the problem here, damage is already so low that tanks and DPS having ANYTHING is going to immediately infringe on the healers

The only thing that would be “enough” to fix the healers with the current damage output is to delete everything off the non healers. Even with no regen (or even upfront heal) on SIO that’s one less GCD heal or mitigation the healer has to apply and with how little damage comes out that’s just less actions for the healer

I wouldn't call the damage "low", if it were actually low you wouldn't need things like SiO, Reprisal, Addle, Feint or Shield Samba to get through raid wide AoEs without someone kissing the ground.

I would call it "too infrequent" because once you've made sure to survive the AoE in the first place there is nothing else happening for a good minute.