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  1. #8221
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,860
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyumi View Post
    [...]Please do not ruin /my/ enjoyment and those of others who may be dumb like me and enjoy this as is, in favor of pleasing those who are unhappy. If we're getting a more complex DPS healer, please consider making this a new job for next expansion, and keeping the current healers feeling exactly as they are. I don't think it's very fair to take something some enjoy and change it to the point they don't, for the benefit of other people.

    But on the other hand, maybe people like me don't belong in this game.
    Here's the thing though. If such player can't handle their dps buttons, then they should focus on their primary job: healing. Fullstop. That's what they are there for. Stop thinking about wanting to dps - heal first, dps second. Bad healers CANNOT/WILL FAIL to fulfill this requirement. As it is now, 1 button spam does not stop people for being bad at their primary job or outright ignoring their 1 button dps. What makes one think a more complex (not MNK/BLM/PCT complexity mind you) damage options would prevent them from.... y'know... healing? An entirely different action vs dpsing?
    (10)

    "Outside obvious jokes/sarcasm, I aim to convey my words to the future readers who may come across mine posts. Can I change -your- mind, somehow? Potentially... but that's not why I'm writing. You and I have wrote our piece(s). We don't necessarily need to change each other's mind. But we can change other's."

  2. #8222
    Player
    Kiyumi's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2024
    Posts
    13
    Character
    Sumire Hanaya
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Supersnow845 View Post
    Because your argument also works in reverse, why did I have to lose my main so people who like it now can have the job that now exists (especially when SGE is so similar to it)

    The old healers were distinct, if you made a new job you couldn’t fit all the things people want back from them, what if they did make a new job that’s just “old SCH with a new name”, what about people who liked old AST.

    If anything SGE and WHM can remain in their modern form (nobody misses old WHM) and revert SCH and AST,
    It can, and I agree they shouldn't have. But I don't think two wrongs make a right, personally...

    I also think these forum topics are a horrible thing to listen to. I don't think happy people are as likely to browse them. I'd prefer if instead of listening to any take on their forums, they did surveys targeted at current players (x% of their last dungeons being a role -> for that role) asking what /they/ want. Only 2-3%ish of a community has to love a job enough to main it for the job to be very successful, yet this community can easily show only that 80% of the community hates a job and wants to see it changed, which I think is a pointless metric. There's a lot of jobs for a reason. I think listening to the wrong people causes these changes to change in ways that ruined it for you to begin with, and I think listening to this will do the exact same, just to others... Is it our turn again, after?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne View Post
    Here's the thing though. If such player can't handle their dps buttons, then they should focus on their primary job: healing. Fullstop. That's what they are there for. Stop thinking about wanting to dps - heal first, dps second. Bad healers CANNOT/WILL FAIL to fulfill this requirement. As it is now, 1 button spam does not stop people for being bad at their primary job or outright ignoring their 1 button dps. What makes one think a more complex (not MNK/BLM/PCT complexity mind you) damage options would prevent them from.... y'know... healing? An entirely different action vs dpsing?

    Healers are in part judged by their damage, and with enrages etc... Simply put, your methodology would likely cut said bad healers out of expert dungeons, extremes, savages etc. Right now, since it's simple, even idiots like me can keep up healing those.

    I am not saying we should be able to, as I said originally, maybe people like me shouldn't have a place in this game, smashing our silly little heads against content you people probably find laughably easy. Just sharing my perspective anyhow, unwelcome as it may be.

    But raising the skill cap /does/ have a cost, people absolutely expect you to perform similarly than others, and raising the maximum does raise the expectation. I already get comments about that sort of thing sometimes as-is, so yeah, I'm not too eager for dumping more requirements on me...
    (2)

  3. #8223
    Player
    Rein_eon_Osborne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2020
    Location
    Shadowflare - Ward Miasma II, Plot Broil IV
    Posts
    3,860
    Character
    Mira Clearweaver
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyumi View Post
    [...]Healers are in part judged by their damage, and with enrages etc... Simply put, your methodology would likely cut said bad healers out of expert dungeons, extremes, savages etc. Right now, since it's simple, even idiots like me can keep up healing those.

    I am not saying we should be able to, as I said originally, maybe people like me shouldn't have a place in this game, smashing our silly little heads against content you people probably find laughably easy. Just sharing my perspective anyhow, unwelcome as it may be.

    But raising the skill cap /does/ have a cost, people absolutely expect you to perform similarly than others, and raising the maximum does raise the expectation. I already get comments about that sort of thing sometimes as-is, so yeah, I'm not too eager for dumping more requirements on me...
    Why do you think the community back in HW was largely fine if you choose to not interact with Cleric Stance?

    Expert dungeons/Casual contents? They're not required to dps because enrages do not exist---or exist but being laughably lenient (hello O1N).
    EX/Savage? No sh!t. They're playing a content where some degree of competency IS required. This applies to all role. Why then, suddenly Healers are pardoned from... you know, growing better outside pushing their pretty sparkly heal buttons? Applying that same logic i.e. to tanks, all tanks should have their dps buttons removed and consolidated into Flash spam, to generate enmity AND enmity alone - NOTHING else. What about your main RDM? Remove their Addle, Magick Barrier, Vercure and Verraise, turn everything into Jolt I II III and Impact. Nothing else. See how absurd the logic is & the double standard SE have imparted onto the role?

    Doing damage as a healer nowadays are highly expected - and is bleeding into casual content partly because our damage options are being made so, so, SO EASY to perform that if somebody fails, the first reaction would be like seeing somebody failing to breath Oxygen out in the park: "How did you failed even THAT?!"
    (16)

  4. #8224
    Player
    Azurarok's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Posts
    875
    Character
    Medim Azurarok
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyumi View Post
    Please do not ruin /my/ enjoyment and those of others who [...] enjoy this as is, in favor of pleasing those who are unhappy.
    You lost me with this line. The current healer landscape exists on top of changes that ruined others' enjoyment of these jobs around 5 years ago, so this comes off as far more selfish than what I'm hoping you intended.

    Edit: And I'm saying this as someone who started in ShB. I never experienced SB or HW healers and even the changes made through EW have felt like downgrades to me so I can only imagine how long of a fall it's been for those who enjoyed the role back then.
    (8)
    Last edited by Azurarok; 08-08-2024 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #8225
    Player
    Supersnow845's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2021
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    6,394
    Character
    Andreas Cestelle
    World
    Jenova
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyumi View Post
    snip
    I mean I agree that they need to do more surveys, the reason we yell on the forums here is because square never seems to actually listen to anyone, they just pull the feedback from absolutely nowhere then try to retroactively justify it but I also don’t think your idea of “the current jobs all have people who love them so they shouldn’t change make new jobs for people who preferred the old jobs” is in any way a viable strategy as many people want many different things out of the jobs. The jobs have always changed over the years. I don’t want to call you selfish and I genuinely don’t want it to come off that way but it is a bit hard to not see it that way when your point basically amounts to “I like the current jobs so they should be frozen, complainers can get other jobs in the future” because again it circles back to my argument that your opinion on that subject is just as valid as mine who wishes they froze the jobs in HW and now I don’t have a home for what I want out of a job

    Job design doesn’t have to exclude one to appeal to the other but your point towards Reiner seems to focus on the need that it does. The idea that if the healers were any different than they currently are suddenly it would lead to people like you being excluded. I won’t say this point is wrong l, more just a little naive given the history of the game

    Again I’m not trying to be mean (I’m really not) but your point seems to be strongly based on limited knowledge borne from recent entry into the game and the assumption that anything larger than a minute change would cause the entire game to come crashing down because the game hasn’t fundamentally changed since ShB, it’s not exactly an unreasonable point to reach but I do believe it’s misinformed
    (8)
    As a healer main in this game for nigh on 14 years all I can say is that I’m tired. My role has been eroded of complexity and expression for 3 expansions. I’ve watched the tanks do my role for me for 2 expansions and my feedback and critiques continue to fall on deaf ears.

    I have no idea who modern healers are designed for but I know now it’s not me. This is the first expansion I’m truly considering dropping the healer role and not returning, so if that was the goal- congratulations I guess

  6. #8226
    Player
    NanaWiloh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    2,433
    Character
    Nana Wiloh
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne View Post
    Why do you think the community back in HW was largely fine if you choose to not interact with Cleric Stance?

    Expert dungeons/Casual contents? They're not required to dps because enrages do not exist---or exist but being laughably lenient (hello O1N).
    EX/Savage? No sh!t. They're playing a content where some degree of competency IS required. This applies to all role. Why then, suddenly Healers are pardoned from... you know, growing better outside pushing their pretty sparkly heal buttons? Applying that same logic i.e. to tanks, all tanks should have their dps buttons removed and consolidated into Flash spam, to generate enmity AND enmity alone - NOTHING else. What about your main RDM? Remove their Addle, Magick Barrier, Vercure and Verraise, turn everything into Jolt I II III and Impact. Nothing else. See how absurd the logic is & the double standard SE have imparted onto the role?

    Doing damage as a healer nowadays are highly expected - and is bleeding into casual content partly because our damage options are being made so, so, SO EASY to perform that if somebody fails, the first reaction would be like seeing somebody failing to breath Oxygen out in the park: "How did you failed even THAT?!"
    I have asked that more times in my years of playing this game then I can remember. Its much worse when someone fails a mechanic so easy that a 5yr old could do it.
    (4)
    Note: Taking advice from a players alt, is like taking advice from a voice in a dark room. Criticism is a two way street remember that!!

  7. #8227
    Player
    Verathel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2024
    Posts
    94
    Character
    Verathel Tetras
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 100
    I'm kind of surprised this is still going on. With how DT has been going on almost want to wait out several patches instead of keep playing and some of the later content looks to be very, very interesting.
    (1)

  8. #8228
    Player
    PercibelTheren's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2023
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    1,000
    Character
    Percibel Theren
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by sagacious View Post
    MK4 is just to hard. I have seen all the streams saying DT raids are not to hard and just get GUD, but I have 3 alts doing MK4 3 times a week and I can't get it right .... the phase where 1/4th of the room is left and we have to go back and forth is impossible ... Can anyone provide any tips ..I'm so lost on it and I play healer and when the healer dies it's game over .. I need help. (cries)
    Stand right below the boss. Look at her cannon and move to the opposite of wherever she is firing. I'm personally not a huge fan of "memory test" mechanics like that but it's doable.

    The mistake I see most people make there is move too far and then not have enough time to get to the other side.
    (3)

  9. #8229
    Player
    Rolder50's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    1,615
    Character
    Alarasong Elaha
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Verathel View Post
    I'm kind of surprised this is still going on. With how DT has been going on almost want to wait out several patches instead of keep playing and some of the later content looks to be very, very interesting.
    The devs do have a tendency to put the absolute bare minimum into the X.0 releases and then stretch out the other interesting things as long as possible to get to the next expansion.

    Gotta keep those sub counts going ya hear
    (1)

  10. #8230
    Player
    PercibelTheren's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2023
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    1,000
    Character
    Percibel Theren
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Astrologian Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiyumi View Post
    snip snap.
    We have 4 healers. That's already enough for varying levels of complexity. If you told DPS players that all jobs have to be as straightforward as Summoner, you would be laughed out of the room but somehow, with healers, that's the standard?

    What people are asking for is keeping a low skill floor (so everyone can perform OK) but a high skill ceiling, so that skilled healers in skilled parties have something to focus on that isn't spamming their 1 DPS ability while waiting for the scheduled raidwide attack.
    (7)

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