#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Talianore]

> "I show serious interest"
> Gets a serious answer by someone.
> "Oh hi, you must be the same person because there's no way 2 people would disagree with me"

What a joke.

That guy is doing textbook sealioning, so it's probably best to thank him for the thread bump and ignore otherwise.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

I think the lethargic gameplay point is too nebulous to gauge - I seen a similar argument as to why a tank was expected to pick up mobs when a DPS decides to run ahead and pull a 2nd pack; the question of baselines come up and I generally use the trust system as a crude gauge of a roles "expected" behavior in that group content - eveything beyond which is optional and thus why we do not have trusts for EX's/Savages/Ultimates.

I don't think a player should be expected to watch a guide for endgame content (in the notion of a EX) as I feel that should be a sort of intro where sub-par performance is not the difference between success/failure; you might know the class but you might just be slow to respond...have bad reflexes...get distracted easily etc etc.

I do feel if healers need more to do the answer is similar to scholars and abilities like expedience; a nice to have and a definite boon in more challenging content such as savage; but not a deal breaker in stuff like extremes. I think the "laid-back" players do need things to do late game to challenge themselves somewhat and then decide if they want to go higher or if that was tough enough for them. If a person wishes to step it up into savage then at that point I don't really give them a pass on effort; as you are choosing to take on that challenge.

I feel we are not so much in disagreement but rather have different notions of the solution - I am always concerned with tweaking DPS numbers and my concern with complicating a healers DPS rotation will result in potential issues where sub-par players will suddenly cause issues in entry content like Ex's; and if you fix that issue then you will have exceptional players trivializing it. So thats why I worry about tweaking that math - Perhaps the answer is a healer similar to WAR/SMN where the class can meet that bar with generally a modest effort.

Keep in mind there are lots of players and we want more players for more chances to engage in group content; so we generally do not want to deter folks from trying the content; but amoung those players there is a multitude of reasons why they might not be "good" outside of being lazy or not understanding the class.

[Sharawiwi]

Do you think expert daily (it has expert in the name) should be clearable by 0 mits single pack puller tanks, 1 button bot healers, or dps doing less damage than a LB ? I personally think not, and it is toxic to the game for it to be possible.

Why do you think looking up the most basic guide about rotation and ogcds (if you know nothing about your job) is too much to ask for extremes ? It's a level 100 content, in a 10+ years of game, locked behind either a humongous amount of hours or 45€.

They already feel too challenged by the MSQ dungeons (and this isn't a local thing, it's worldwide), why do they choose to go in even harder content, when they themselves say the MSQ is already way too hard ?
They choose to subject themselves to fights they know will be impossible for them, and then complain.

But there is already a easy healer, there has been since StB, it's the WHM, very easy to play, not punitive, works generally for any content. Why do every healers need to be like this ? Can you imagine if every dps was reworked like SMN ? Or every tank like WAR and stripped down of their dps rotations ?

I don't think we want 0 efforts babies (because they have been pampered in every way possible) to go in EXs. They need to be walled hard on a content, so they either choose to improve or play less difficult content (plenty of it, it is the vast majority of the game, by far).

I'm sincerely so confused by your posts, either very good trolling because I keep engaging, or sadly a bit disconnected from the situation (no offense, but have you played healer a lot in DT ? And before ?).

[Basteala]

Do you think expert daily (it has expert in the name) should be clearable by 0 mits single pack puller tanks, 1 button bot healers, or dps doing less damage than a LB ? I personally think not, and it is toxic to the game for it to be possible.

Why do you think looking up the most basic guide about rotation and ogcds (if you know nothing about your job) is too much to ask for extremes ? It's a level 100 content, in a 10+ years of game, locked behind either a humongous amount of hours or 45€.

They already feel too challenged by the MSQ dungeons (and this isn't a local thing, it's worldwide), why do they choose to go in even harder content, when they themselves say the MSQ is already way too hard ?
They choose to subject themselves to fights they know will be impossible for them, and then complain.

But there is already a easy healer, there has been since StB, it's the WHM, very easy to play, not punitive, works generally for any content. Why do every healers need to be like this ? Can you imagine if every dps was reworked like SMN ? Or every tank like WAR and stripped down of their dps rotations ?

I don't think we want 0 efforts babies (because they have been pampered in every way possible) to go in EXs. They need to be walled hard on a content, so they either choose to improve or play less difficult content (plenty of it, it is the vast majority of the game, by far).

I'm sincerely so confused by your posts, either very good trolling because I keep engaging, or sadly a bit disconnected from the situation (no offense, but have you played healer a lot in DT ? And before ?).

This is very well said, and I think it sums up a good deal of the arguments out there.

Honestly for my own part, I really feel that Experts should be separate from MSQ, essentially optional max level dungeons so you don't get a situation where easier MSQ dungeons become the expert, and the harder ones fall into the level 90 dungeons, and the difficulty of each roulette becomes all over the place. That does no one any favors.

As for why people go into those higher level fights despite being objectively terrible--they want the bragging rights and shiny gear/titles. Very few people do high level content because they want to enjoy the challenge and experience of progressive wiping. They just want to feel badass with none of the work put in.

I'm kinda sad to hear if the EXs didn't get the same difficulty spike as Normals tho. That might have gone a long way to satisfying most parties.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

All fair questions - I enjoy the discussion.

Yes; an it is quite possible for a healer to simply spam high heal to heal the tank using a singular mitigation (versus no mits as I don't recall any case of even the worst tanks never using any mitigations) I think we've all seen DPS doing less damage then a LB in Experts (least I have)

I think your missing my point on the "easy healer" as by the suggested course of action; WHM would not work the way it does now - that's why I was offering as a solution that preservation of a accessible healer for content around the Expert difficulty range. I am not against this as long as your not suddenly pulling the rug out from under players who have been getting by as a healer to compensate for general lack of ability to do rotations. (generally I find Tanks are pretty simple rotations - but tankseity is a thing that scares folks from the role.) We generally try to teach some of the role functions in the form of role quests;

I do not feel that a player should feel obligated to research openers and concepts such as rotational drift; or understanding the 2 minute burst window. In fact we actually do have a DPS measure in game folks often never venture to (proving grounds) which I frankly feel passing should be a requirement to enter Savage content. I feel Expert/EX is at a decent level and that the notion of injecting difficulty will only overall hurt the endgame health by reducing the endgame population.

As to address the MSQ I think that is not a large portion of the population and almost certainly not the people that are stepping a single foot in EX.

To be fair I hate healing - I leveled up Astro through dungeon running and didn't enjoy the gameplay of healers so I am more then willing to hear out the complaints and have made efforts to try to understand the desire for changes - I did the role quests and jazz but am by no means speaking as a authority on healers. However I do think that your being a bit harsh in the notion that folks in EX are "0 effort babies" and I am not encouraging that - however I think the problem is that many of the far more content focused players seem to be unable to agree where the middle ground is. For a bit of background I recall a time when MMO's did not have detailed boss walk throughts you could pour over and timers on every boss mechanics. Combat was simpler and generally if you read what your abilities did and used them - you got by. I noticed around the arrival of the WoW scene that rotations started to become a thing and optimizations to engage in some content became a concept which I am a bit torn on because it ultimately results in developers making content that some of the player base will never encounter; but thats just the evolution of the thing I figure.

Ultimately though I think you do need harder content; not necessarily harder gameplay.

[Sharawiwi]

I've seen multiple instances of 0 mits tanks, each and every of my friends has too, countless posts on forum and reddit about it, alas it's all anecdotal evidence.

Their could be an "easy mode" togglable that plays instead of you, it is sthing i'm all for, so people afraid of pushing more than 1 button or responsibilities would be able to play any job in the game in any content, and have a separate queue where only people in "easy mode" are queued.
As for MSQ, just look up the JP forums, limitless complains about the Wuk Lamat msq fight.

But I guess you would feel this need for Savage content ? In the end we're agreeing on the need of a barrier between "normal" and harder content, be it a dps test on dummies or an ability test (look up the mastery trial in Warframe), I just think the harder content starts at expert dungeon and you at Savage. Maybe you'd be a bit harsher on the terrible players if you played healer more, it burdens every aspect of the game when you have people like this in your party, and as a healer you feel it more than anyone else.
And it's even worse when your healers are these laid back players, any instance of stress healing or a complex mechanic turns into a party wipe. So you either play healer to ensure you'll clear your [insert any content] in less than 45 min or you're at the mercy of the dawntrail healers who don't want responsibilities (as you said) and thus don't want, and are not able to, heal or raise the party (I have seen next to no healer since DT hard casting a raise, if they have instant on cooldown, they never raise, it's like they don't know it's possible).

Disagreeing on the last point, I (and a lot of others who have voiced it) definitely need harder gameplay, I play to have fun and I have absolutely none as healer. That's why I switched to GNB and MNK, engaging jobs with rotations and potent healing tools.

[Basteala]

All fair questions - I enjoy the discussion.
Yes; an it is quite possible for a healer to simply spam high heal to heal the tank using a singular mitigation (versus no mits as I don't recall any case of even the worst tanks never using any mitigations) I think we've all seen DPS doing less damage then a LB in Experts (least I have)

Oh I have. There are some tanks that love to pull everything but "save" their CDs for bosses. Healing them sucks. Really sucks.

All fair questions - I enjoy the discussion.
I think your missing my point on the "easy healer" as by the suggested course of action; WHM would not work the way it does now

Butting in here, but where are you finding problems with WHM as an intro class? Applying both HoTs gives the healer a lot of room for error. Holy is very nice in dungeons because if you don't go the full AoE DPS route, you can force the fight to pause and catch your breath--not useless at all. Your special resource is automatic, so you don't really have any extra nonsense to manage. The only thing I can really see that would make this more "beginner friendly" is a fairy of its own for passive healing--but then we're getting into braindead territory.

All fair questions - I enjoy the discussion.
I do not feel that a player should feel obligated to research openers and concepts such as rotational drift; or understanding the 2 minute burst window...I feel Expert/EX is at a decent level and that the notion of injecting difficulty will only overall hurt the endgame health by reducing the endgame population.

For the MSQ? No. For optional content that allegedly advertises some level of difficulty? For Raiding, Experts, and certainly EX/Savage? Sorry, you need to put the big boy pants on. At *least* understanding the 2 minute burst window and having a general idea of what buttons you want to press is something you really should know how to do and it takes like five minutes.

This isn't world of Warcraft where even if you don't want to dedicate those five minutes that you have nothing to do. You have treasure maps, you have hunts and fate trains, and an absolute boatload of side stories you can do unsynced and enjoy even at a complete beginner level after a couple of xpacs. Hell, (some) of the relic quests aren't even that hard. You have things like Hildibrand as well...your endgame isn't going to die because someone doesn't want to spend two seconds asking or looking up a basic rotation.

Also you have to *try* to not know about two minute burst. Someone is inevitably going to talk about it, even if it's just to bitch about class homogenization.

[Ayan_Calvesse]

-snip char limit

I agree with the first point; but generally I could anecdotally never recall a situation of a tank never using mits - interesting note I find too many tanks have a bad habit of waiting till they are 10-20% HP before considering a mit. I notice healers letting tanks dip lower these days now too.

As for the WHM comment the wording I used was terrible; I mean to say if you suddenly added complexity to WHM rotation then it would no longer be the "simple" healer; word limits such but yeah if your going to complicate healer classes then you probably want to leave a summoner esque healer for players to settle into.

To the final point I disagree; I think EX/Expert is to give those lower performing players something to challenge themselves; lets be honest anything below EX/Expert is laughable in difficulty and so I cannot take the player difficulty complaints there in good faith; but I think knowing what buttons to press is a significant difference from understanding a rotation routine for some jobs (admittedly havent played viper yet but have heard its very braindead). I DO agree that for Savage or higher however at that point you should be going outside the game to generally optimize your playstyle; but I think thats just a difference of perspective of where the bar is.

Footnote - I hate the 2 minute window for exactly that reason and admittedly I often see a lot of players not really understanding aligning the 2 minute burst despite the MASSIVE difference it has on a parties success. I am interested to see these forums once Savage comes out tommorrow.

[Bobby66]

Oh I have. There are some tanks that love to pull everything but "save" their CDs for bosses. Healing them sucks. Really sucks.

Idk call me weird but I love healing tanks like that. They make expert roulette bareable.

[Ilenya]

Idk call me weird but I love healing tanks like that. They make expert roulette bareable.

Unfortunate reality. Healing is the most fun when people aren't playing well.