#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Bobby66]

At this point it is best to ignore them, I feel like they don't want to really heal.

Oh I very much do want to heal, and I do heal. I am looking forward to healing savage as AST. I just don't think people should ask for changes without at the very least considering the impact it may have on others. Yes, you can say others do that, but two wrongs don't make a right.

[Silver-Strider]

Oh I very much do want to heal, and I do heal. I am looking forward to healing savage as AST. I just don't think people should ask for changes without at the very least considering the impact it may have on others. Yes, you can say others do that, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'll consider the impact if there was something to actually consider. As it currently stands, we spend upwards of 70% of our casts on DPS actions so a more varied rotation would have about as much impact as a drop of water in the ocean, even less so depending on how you implement the actual mechanics of the rotation. It's virtually a non-issue if ever there was one.

[Ramiee]

I wish the people who clearly enjoyed healer played it more so my DPS queues weren't as long

[Aravell]

I say it is disingenuous because people clearly find currently healers fun or still play them. If current healer playstyle was as bad as people here have made it out to be on a large scale healers probably would have been changed just the by the nature of not having enough healers to complete content. Queues times would be horrible across the board, groups would be waiting for hours to find healers. They are extreme examples but you catch my point.

It is okay to want something back, but at the same time I think we need to acknowledge that people clearly do enjoy healers as they are. Maybe even more people like healers that don't like healers. That is why I say it is disingenuous, like I said I loved old smn, and I am sure many others did but alas more people like current smn so no point asking for old smn to come back.

I think we all acknowledge that there are people who like current healers, that's why a lot of proposed designs are made with the current playstyle in mind.

But there's absolutely no way you can prove that more people love healers the way they are now than before, because you haven't factored in people who main a certain job and will play that job no matter what changes happen to it.

The only data point we have access to (Luckybancho's survey) shows that the percentage of healers have decreased over time, it remains to be seen if it will continue to decrease, but SE should clearly have this data too.

Again, you're arguing from the perspective that SE has a plan and are objectively correct according to the data, but we don't know that, you don't know that. So why is it that we're disingenuous? We don't even know if returning SCH to SB would decrease the population, it might even increase the population.

[Bobby66]

I think we all acknowledge that there are people who like current healers, that's why a lot of proposed designs are made with the current playstyle in mind.

But there's absolutely no way you can prove that more people love healers the way they are now than before, because you haven't factored in people who main a certain job and will play that job no matter what changes happen to it.

The only data point we have access to (Luckybancho's survey) shows that the percentage of healers have decreased over time, it remains to be seen if it will continue to decrease, but SE should clearly have this data too.

Again, you're arguing from the perspective that SE has a plan and are objectively correct according to the data, but we don't know that, you don't know that. So why is it that we're disingenuous? We don't even know if returning SCH to SB would decrease the population, it might even increase the population.

I did say maybe, but from a a simple numbers POV if a lot of people hated healers wouldn't queues be the point where it is borderline unplayable? I am not saying the plan SE has is objectively correct, I am saying SE has a plan that may just very well not fit within what we want from healers and even the game as a whole. What I am saying is SE has clearly has a vision, if that vision has a place for me as a healer player or not is up for debate but to think they don't have a vision because they don't tell us is silly. Doesn't it show that FFXIV in general is in decline just like any long standing MMO?

In my view if something has been changed asking for the change to be reverted is disingenuous because it shits on those that may enjoy that aspect for what it is in this moment and ignores the fact that for whatever reason the change from what it was before must have happened to why it is the way it is now. Just how I was raised I guess.

Sure we don't have the data points but we do have a point in history where healers were changed from something akin to what a group of people are asking for now. That change happened for some reason we cannot deny that, and I think it is silly to pretend that change did not happen or it happened in some vacuum that holds no merit what so ever.

Nope, even in Savage and Ultimate, you will still be spending 75%+ of your GCDs on damage. If you weren't, you would just be standing around picking your nose.

During prog? Maybe I am trash but nah I do not feel that is the case, after the fight is mapped out and it is optimized sure but at that is bound to happen once you get use to the fight. Just like when you start to gear up a fight becomes easier that is just the nature of progression.

I wish the people who clearly enjoyed healer played it more so my DPS queues weren't as long

Right now my queue is around 15 min as a DPS that is not horrible in my opinion. DPS queues will always be longer that is a problem across the board when it comes to any trinity based game. Generally speaking you always have more DPS players than healers or tanks I cannot think of one MMO that I have played where dps out paced tank and healers by a large margin.

[Punslinger]

The risk however if healers gets more DPS skills to flesh it out is that we'll be back to ARR when groups got mad at healers not using said DPS skills when there's no healing to be done.
We could be back to groups shadow kicking healers for not playing "optimal" simply because they are playing healers to heal and not to deal damage.
This isn't a job design flaw but a people problem.
Also, if healers do get more DPS skills content would have to get adjusted for that extra DPS meaning that a healer who doesn't DPS will bring the rest of the group down.
Which would only fuel the group members pressure on the Healers.

This was removed before due to the splitting and toxicity of the playerbase so I don't see SE going back to such times anytime soon.
Not until people can be trusted to not bash on people not performing optimal.

"The risk, however, if tanks get more than two DPS skills, is that we'll be back to ARR when groups got mad at tanks not using said DPS skills when there's no tanking to be done.
We could be back to groups shadow kicking tanks for not playing "optimal" simply because they are playing tanks to tank and not to deal damage.
This isn't a job design flaw but a people problem.
Also, if tanks do get more than two DPS skills, content would have to be adjusted for that extra DPS meaning that a tank who doesn't DPS will bring the rest of the group down.
Which would only fuel the group members' pressure on the tanks.

Tank stance DPS penalty was removed before due to the splitting and toxicity of the playerbase, so I don't see SE going back to such times anytime soon. Not until people can be trusted to not bash on people not performing optimally."

It's the exact same logic.

Your argument is just a very long-winded way of saying, "All healers are glue-huffing monkeys, and need to be babied and coddled by the game so that they can't possibly fail in any way. Meanwhile, DPS and Tank jobs are played by responsible adults and we should get actual DPS rotations, and also healing abilities so we can do the raid leader's girlfriend's healer's job for them when they inevitably fail."

If you want to take healing away then you have to give tanks something else, you cannot just turn tanks into "dps with a provoke" so that you feel relevant and useful.

I hate to break it to you, buddy, but tanks are already Blue DPS with defensive CDs. That is why they have actual DPS rotations. Tanks don't need to actively manage aggro anymore. Their mitigation is all off the GCD.

if you think FFXIV tanks are self-sufficient just wait until you see what a geared tank can do in a game like WoW

Appeal to Worse Problems Fallacy. "This other game gives its tanks even more cheat codes, so it's okay if FF14 gives its tanks only a few cheat codes!"

FFXIV´s tank self sustain s not the issue nor the reason why healing in FFIXV is in the situation it is, and it is just a lazy "solution" that would affect the rest of us.

Yes, it is one of the reasons. When WAR can heal not only itself but also the whole damn party in Expert dungeons, what is there for the healer to do? News flash: This is a multiplayer game, which means you should not be able to do everything all by yourself.

So again, keep us out of your problems.

Translation: "I like playing FF14 with cheat codes! Stop taking away my tank privilege!"

[Evergrey]

-snip-

You don't have to like my comment, that's fine.
But this is what happened once and Yoshi himself said in an interview that he don't think giving healers more dps skills is the way to go. Bringing up the "putting pressure on the healers" as a reason for it.
So it's not me calling healers "glue-huffers", those are your own words.

[Ruruura]

Translation: "I like playing FF14 with cheat codes! Stop taking away my tank privilege!"

I should not have to, but i will explain myself because this type of argument is getting boring..

What is being said, is twofold:

1) The healing problem in FFXIV goes way beyond just tanks being able to heal themselves, and focusing exclusively on that like many posters here, is silly.

2) Like you said yourself at the moment we are little more than blue DPS with a lot of self-sustain, and that self-sustain is literally the only thing that makes us feel like the resilent chonkers we are supposed to be.

If that has to be removed for the sake of healers, then it is only fair that further tank oriented changes /redesigns happen so that tanks can recover our chonky resilient defensive class fantasy, and the FEAR is that they are going to do nothing of such.

We are not saying :

"screw the healers, leave us as is and healers be darned"

We are saying:

"If you guys are coming for our self healing this better come with something in exchange to make up for it and make tanks feel the way they should again"

And i do not think i can be blamed for being extremely worried about Squenix halfassing the solution because there are a lot of precedents of it.

And because this game is entirely based around DPS and not the defense that tanks are meant to represent, so i do not see them changing that anytime soon.

So what are we to do, just become pure and LITERAL blue DPS so healers have more fun? Is that what you want? I do not think that is fair either lmao.

[Shurrikhan]

Ruruura, you seem to be conflating gameplay and capacity here. Yes, having some control over one's healing input by being able to do some of that oneself can allow tanks to feel more like tanks since they then have more (types of) levers to pull in keeping themselves alive, but it is as every bit as arguable that tanks felt more like tanks when they had less total sustain (unwasted damage restored + damage nullified) precisely because good use of what resources and optimizations one did have mattered more as it is that tanks should be able to outlive everything easily and/or independently just because they're tanks.

The first is gameplay, the second capacity. Just as good gameplay can't make far inferior capacity competitive, neither can high capacity replace gameplay interest.

For my part, I tend to have the most fun on my tanks when it actually makes me fear for my life and use every trick at my disposal, such as per Protection Warrior in M+ for much of Shadowlands (lowest easily available general defense and greatest sustain cost for dealing decent damage). To that, the manner and degree of agency matters a ton while capacity actually best serves the experience when it is only barely enough (for playing as a group, moreover, not independent handling of group content). Having tons of chonkiness more than is necessary for performing one's role leaves redundant most of our optimizations and arguably therefore makes tanking feel worse.

Now, XIV dungeons (outside of Savage Criterion) are merely XIV dungeons and so a larger margin is fine, but its excesses should neither be a target nor considered thematic, especially so long as that excess renders another whole role redundant.

Here, though, I'd likewise argue for content that can better leverage situational support and healer kits that can provide it alongside other forms of more engaging downtime options rather than the outright removal of tank flat sustain (potency or %HP heals or barriers), but that has more to do with issues of scaling across low-incoming-damage (which favors flat sustain) and high-incoming-damage (which favors scaled sustain) and differing means of agency rather than any assumption that we tanks need every possible pie short of (optimized) DPSs' damage output.

Tl;dr: Agreed that tanks shouldn't lose even more agency in their gameplay, but if you mean that instead in a sense of mere reduction to an already bloated degree of capacity, I could scarcely care less.

[Punslinger]

1) The healing problem in FFXIV goes way beyond just tanks being able to heal themselves, and focusing exclusively on that like many posters here, is silly.

Except nobody is focusing exclusively on that at all. It is one of many problems, as many of us have repeatedly said. The fact that there are other problems that make healing boring does not mean that tank self-sustain in its current form is not also a problem.

2) Like you said yourself at the moment we are little more than blue DPS with a lot of self-sustain, and that self-sustain is literally the only thing that makes us feel like the resilent chonkers we are supposed to be.

How is the current absurd self-healing "literally the only thing that makes you feel like the resilient chonkers you are supposed to be?" I thought your higher defense stats and your defensive cooldowns took care of that. I mean, my secondary job is GNB, and I can safely say that I am not leaning on Aurora or the Heart of Corundum excog to feel like a "resilient chonker." Rampart and Grand Nebula do that job just fine.

If that has to be removed for the sake of healers, then it is only fair that further tank oriented changes /redesigns happen so that tanks can recover our chonky resilient defensive class fantasy, and the FEAR is that they are going to do nothing of such.

Why? Tanks were plenty resilient before they started taking over the healer role. Was GNB the squishiest squish that ever squished back in ShB, because it didn't have an excog stapled to Heart of Stone or a second charge of Aurora? Doubtful.

My point is that unlimited self-healing has never defined the tank role in this game. You aren't "losing" anything except being overpowered. You seemingly demand that you be made OP in some other way to compensate for no longer being able to solo current content. You should understand why this is unreasonable.

Tank self-sustain needs to be limited, not removed entirely. It should be able to make up for a blown heal, to buy time for maybe 30 seconds if a healer goes down. It should not be able to let a tank waste 15 minutes of the party's time by slowly soloing down a dungeon boss.

And in any case, You. Already. Have. Defensive. Cooldowns. To. Be. Tanky. You do not need infinite self-sustain in order to be tanky.

So what are we to do, just become pure and LITERAL blue DPS so healers have more fun? Is that what you want? I do not think that is fair either lmao.

That is what tanks already were prior to EW, so, uh, yes? The healer's primary job in every MMO has been to heal the tank, because the healer's job is to heal damage and the tank's job is to take damage. That is kind of how trinity MMOs work.