#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[IDontPetLalas]

So, here's some illustrative questions. *snip*

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me).

That's a big problem IMO.

Well, I find your post interesting. I would like to add a couple of comments.

First of all- to put my comments in context, I happen to have played even longer than you, so a number of your comments are very familiar. It's always nice to see someone who's been enjoying gaming for a while.

Now, i would also agree that a number of your points were common over the years. However, I wouldn't necessarily see this as a "big problem". Allow me to explain why - (1) games have evolved over the years (2) players have evolved over the years.

You may remember , years ago, that casters had to sit and wait between skills? I don't think that this would be acceptable now, unless you're playing a "classic" or "Vanilla" version of a game.

Some points I don't really relate - such as (2) That would either be a new healer, or in new content? So if I die because it's my first time in very difficult content- well, dying (and even possibly a group wipe) should not be seen as a catastrophe. Same as (6) I've played other games where that was completely unnecessary outside of PvP, and 7 - do we really want that to lead to party wipes? similarly don't really want to see (5), having been in a game where healers and tanks had the worst time with needing multiple gear sets, I don't miss that AT ALL.

So out of your list, I could see an argument be made for negotiating some changes on (1), and certainly 8. The rest, not really.

[Amity_Roji]

Well, I find your post interesting. I would like to add a couple of comments.

First of all- to put my comments in context, I happen to have played even longer than you, so a number of your comments are very familiar. It's always nice to see someone who's been enjoying gaming for a while.

#GreyBushGaming unite

You may remember , years ago, that casters had to sit and wait between skills? I don't think that this would be acceptable now, unless you're playing a "classic" or "Vanilla" version of a game.

I do remember, that sucked, and there's a reason it's not in game design anymore and hasn't been for a long time.

Some points I don't really relate - such as (2) That would either be a new healer, or in new content? So if I die because it's my first time in very difficult content

Not necessarily, at least not in the way I was thinking. I think back to the Mimiron fight in WoW, where there were a billion damage sources across the raid while at the same time healers needed to be exceptionally mobile. There were many times we had a DPS going low on health and desperate for a heal, and I had to make a decision between remaining mobile or casting a big heal and chose wrongly - I died, they died, and the raid wiped.

Now, I'm not saying FFXIV needs encounters like that - it (when it was current content at least) was meant to be a high-tier encounter. What I am saying is that it's a perfect illustration of how the game placed a level of importance on the healer role. It placed pressure on the healer(s) to heal to such an extent that it generated errors. It forced a choice, and I think that this is crucial to the healer role.

Same as (6) I've played other games where that was completely unnecessary outside of PvP, and 7 - do we really want that to lead to party wipes?

I think some level of return to legitimate aggro management would be a welcome change. This is really more of a tank issue - and honestly if I were a tank main I'd be striking too, because their role identity has been pretty ruined as well. I think the reason they complain less is because unlike us they do have an engaging DPS rotation to keep them busy. Also, I'm willing to let the tank issues slide a little more because historically it's been blindingly difficult to attract players to the tank role and keeping things a bit more basic makes it more accessible. Still...they may not be as broken as healers in FFXIV, but there's still some pretty serious problems with the tank role IMO.

similarly don't really want to see (5), having been in a game where healers and tanks had the worst time with needing multiple gear sets, I don't miss that AT ALL.

I used the "gear check" example just to be illustrative, but in general I think that the concept of encounters that fail because the healers couldn't generate a high enough level of output is a good thing. We have that for DPS in the form of hard enrages, so why not us? There aren't many encounters where you can take a step back and say "Ok, it is vital that our healers be on top of their game with their healing."

[IDontPetLalas]

#GreyBushGaming unite


I do remember, that sucked, and there's a reason it's not in game design anymore and hasn't been for a long time.


Not necessarily, at least not in the way I was thinking. I think back to the Mimiron fight in WoW, where there were a billion damage sources across the raid while at the same time healers needed to be exceptionally mobile. There were many times we had a DPS going low on health and desperate for a heal, and I had to make a decision between remaining mobile or casting a big heal and chose wrongly - I died, they died, and the raid wiped.

Now, I'm not saying FFXIV needs encounters like that - it (when it was current content at least) was meant to be a high-tier encounter. What I am saying is that it's a perfect illustration of how the game placed a level of importance on the healer role. It placed pressure on the healer(s) to heal to such an extent that it generated errors. It forced a choice, and I think that this is crucial to the healer role.


I think some level of return to legitimate aggro management would be a welcome change. This is really more of a tank issue - and honestly if I were a tank main I'd be striking too, because their role identity has been pretty ruined as well. I think the reason they complain less is because unlike us they do have an engaging DPS rotation to keep them busy. Also, I'm willing to let the tank issues slide a little more because historically it's been blindingly difficult to attract players to the tank role and keeping things a bit more basic makes it more accessible. Still...they may not be as broken as healers in FFXIV, but there's still some pretty serious problems with the tank role IMO.


I used the "gear check" example just to be illustrative, but in general I think that the concept of encounters that fail because the healers couldn't generate a high enough level of output is a good thing. We have that for DPS in the form of hard enrages, so why not us? There aren't many encounters where you can take a step back and say "Ok, it is vital that our healers be on top of their game with their healing."

Sorry, missed this one, thanks for the clarification. I would agree, healing checks might even be a way to slowly introduce healers into more difficult content. I would also agree that tanks have had some pruning from their role.

[BunnyQueen]

I've been thinking more about the concept of role identity for healers in FFXIV compared to other MMOs I've played over the last 20 or so years and I think I've come up with some points that haven't really been thoroughly discussed here yet. I've spoken before on the problems with healers and what healers should be in this thread, but there's a gap between "What's wrong with healers/what should healers be?" and "What are scenarios in FFXIV that illustrate how healers in this game differ from healers in basically every other MMO?" So, here's some illustrative questions.

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me).

That's a big problem IMO.

This right here literally is EVERYTHING that I want a healer to FEEL, this is amazing! thank you! By healer being fixed it will also fix my role. (Tank) Too many who main the same role as me have developed this weird AF god complex and it pisses me off.

[Xurtan]

I've been thinking more about the concept of role identity for healers in FFXIV compared to other MMOs I've played over the last 20 or so years and I think I've come up with some points that haven't really been thoroughly discussed here yet. I've spoken before on the problems with healers and what healers should be in this thread, but there's a gap between "What's wrong with healers/what should healers be?" and "What are scenarios in FFXIV that illustrate how healers in this game differ from healers in basically every other MMO?" So, here's some illustrative questions.

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me).

That's a big problem IMO.

Oh this is a fun one.

1. Nope.
2. Nope (I guess unless you count server tic not having a tank's invuln actually activate despite going on CD, and having Bene land on their cooling corpse?).
3. No, all damage is scripted and the vast majority of healing is oGCD.
4. Not in several years. Mana hasn't been a factor since... early Omega, maybe? Maybe earlier?
5. No. Mechanics are either 'survive and heal through fine' or 'insta-gib regardless of healing'.
6. No, because the non-healer classes that have shields and the like are oGCD.
7. Not since early Stormblood or thereabouts?
8. Eh? I mean, yes kinda, because average Savage is hard to do without any healers at all. But I mostly spend the time Glaring, so it doesn't actually FEEL vital.

[BunnyQueen]

Oh this is a fun one.

1. Nope.
2. Nope (I guess unless you count server tic not having a tank's invuln actually activate despite going on CD, and having Bene land on their cooling corpse?).
3. No, all damage is scripted and the vast majority of healing is oGCD.
4. Not in several years. Mana hasn't been a factor since... early Omega, maybe? Maybe earlier?
5. No. Mechanics are either 'survive and heal through fine' or 'insta-gib regardless of healing'.
6. No, because the non-healer classes that have shields and the like are oGCD.
7. Not since early Stormblood or thereabouts?
8. Eh? I mean, yes kinda, because average Savage is hard to do without any healers at all. But I mostly spend the time Glaring, so it doesn't actually FEEL vital.

That's a lot of no's where there should be a yes if a game does healing right. Meaning healing is done wrong in FFXIV.

[Kes13a]

I've been thinking more about the concept of role identity for healers in FFXIV compared to other MMOs I've played over the last 20 or so years and I think I've come up with some points that haven't really been thoroughly discussed here yet. I've spoken before on the problems with healers and what healers should be in this thread, but there's a gap between "What's wrong with healers/what should healers be?" and "What are scenarios in FFXIV that illustrate how healers in this game differ from healers in basically every other MMO?" So, here's some illustrative questions.

Healers:

1. Do you regularly spend more time healing your party than DPSing?
2. Have you ever died to a mechanic because you were desperately trying to heal someone?
3. Do you frequently feel like you need to make a conscious choice on whether or not to cast a healing spell, knowing there would be repercussions if you chose poorly?
4. Do you frequently feel you need to carefully manage your resources (MP, class points, etc.) to prevent your party from dying?
5. Have you ever failed an encounter because your party lacked enough healing output despite your party not failing critical encounter mechanics (e.g., a "healer gear check")?
6. Do you commonly have a non-healer in your party sacrifice DPS in order to prioritize your safety?
7. Are you ever concerned that your healing may accidentally draw threat/aggro, leading to your death and/or a party wipe?
8. Do you feel like a vital member to the overall encounter effort instead of just someone to "clean up others' mistakes"?

1. no. Unless it is a very very bad party, they happen.
2. well, yeah, I often watch health bars and I have rng feet... so... if someone needs it, I may be about to die
3. no, not really
4. no, as a WHM? only time its even close to an issue is low level stuff where I am glaring my heart out
5. no.
6. if I am the non-healer and see something attacking the healer, yes, all the time.
7. pretty sure they did away with that, if they havent then, no
8. not usually. in the occasional alliance raids if the other parties healers are having issues, then yes, then I do.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

Every one of these things is extremely common for healing roles in other MMOs, but I'm guessing they're not for most of you (they certainly aren't for me)..

Pretty much the only healing spell you actually have to think about anymore is raise, that cast time doesn't mess around and it's a non-trivial amount of mp, and they proceeded to add a bunch of body checks lmao.

I don't know if adding active aggro management back would actually be an improvement (like genuinely I don't know, Endwalker baby) but it's interesting just how many obvious healer things just, aren't. I don't even know the last time a Paladin covered me, might have never happened, even those opposed to the "strike" are often like "yeah healer is a crutch but."

[Ramiee]

Pretty much the only healing spell you actually have to think about anymore is raise, that cast time doesn't mess around and it's a non-trivial amount of mp, and they proceeded to add a bunch of body checks lmao.

I don't know if adding active aggro management back would actually be an improvement (like genuinely I don't know, Endwalker baby) but it's interesting just how many obvious healer things just, aren't. I don't even know the last time a Paladin covered me, might have never happened, even those opposed to the "strike" are often like "yeah healer is a crutch but."

Aggro management past ARR was pretty easy, they could maybe fix the healer < dps in dungeons by having healers be the main way to stop aggro generation of DPS and also make auto attacks destroy DPS in like 2 hits from bosses. This doesn't fix the healer role fully as despite what JP says unless full healing is impossible to do in one button press especially in AOE, healers will always have a ton of downtime where they will have to dps instead or overheal.

[Amity_Roji]

Oops, I missed this one, soz.

Pretty much the only healing spell you actually have to think about anymore is raise, that cast time doesn't mess around and it's a non-trivial amount of mp, and they proceeded to add a bunch of body checks lmao.

Every healer class has the ability to insta-cast a rez (as can Summoners and Red Mages), and as a WHM I can also do it for 0 MP with Thin Air - twice. Even if my Swiftcast is on cooldown I can pop Presence of Mind and dramatically reduce the cast time if I need a second rez, and in most encounters it's easier to do this while avoiding mechanics than it is for a BLM to fully utilize their leylines.

That said, I kinda think of rezzing as somewhat irrelevant to the argument as it's a cut-and-dry example of a "recovery tool" - you're only using it if someone screwed up.

Hell, in a lot of MMOs the idea of being able to rez someone during an encounter at all is a rare and/or alien thing.

I don't know if adding active aggro management back would actually be an improvement (like genuinely I don't know, Endwalker baby) but it's interesting just how many obvious healer things just, aren't. I don't even know the last time a Paladin covered me, might have never happened, even those opposed to the "strike" are often like "yeah healer is a crutch but."

If I were doing a post for #FFXIVTANKSTRIKE I would absolutely bring up active aggro management as a thing missing from that role. I don't think a return to stuff like Classic WoW's "Ok, nobody DPS until I've got three Sunder Armor stacks" uber-hardcore aggro management would be good, but having something to make it at least relevant would be nice. As it sits all tanks have to do is pop a tank stance and they could literally faceroll their way to holding aggro.

And the only time I've ever had a tank cover me in recent years in this game is if a boss mechanic explicitly requires it (scripted tank LB3 or the like).