#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[CerusSerenade]

Re-read my posts, it's not about if it's POSSIBLE to do content without a certain class...of course it's POSSIBLE. It's about what is the best way to do content. There are 2 pillars: Success Rate and Efficiency. Tanks and DPS classes contribute to both Success Rate and Efficiency while healer classes do not contribute to Efficiency, only success rate...thus as content ease increases need for one role in the game decreases while that is not the same for other roles. THat's a design problem.

That's not what you quoted the first time, hence my confusion. Perhaps you'll do better to be more accurate in what post you're responding to in the future.

Again, this is a leveling dungeon, the most casual of casual content, and has always been possible to complete with sub-optimal or unorthodox parties. Basing an argument about performance in a leveling dungeon is foolish.

As to your argument, again, having 3 dps and a tank, or 3 dps and a healer have about the same level of success AND efficiency. The problem really isn't with the classes, but with the dungeon itself being easy, which brings me back to my original point. You're arguing about dungeons being too easy.

On the side, "the best way to do content" is going to ultimately be subjective, as how people value that differs drastically.

[Falkyron]

Except in this case Falkyron: You are ALWAYS better off taking a Red Player than a Green one. Where is the scenario where you want the healer but no tank? Or a healer and tank but no DPS? You're telling me that the situation is exceptionally liimited and thus we're all bitching about a technicality...but there is no correlary to the other jobs. If 100% of the time it's good to take a Blue player and 100% of the time it's good to take a Red player and 95% of the time it's good to take a green player there's STILL a problem.

You can clear the kind of dungeon he did with any one of the roles not being present. It's not unique to healers. It will make the task harder in any case of anybody missing, that's all. You're being disingenuous pretending that the role being unnecessary to complete the dungeon is unique to healers. Some fights you need no tanks, some are purely mechanics like usable turrets so DPS doesn't matter. A lot of content you can clear with 5 DPS, 5 healers, or 5 tanks in your party.
Basically any simple dungeon like the one he did, you can clear with either a tank or healer missing. I know this because I clear dungeons where tanks disconnect all the time, with 2 DPS and myself healing. I clear dungeons where a DPS disconnects all the time, with the damage lacking.

The irony of your statement is that in almost every case, you need either one healer or one tank to 'get by'. There are so few cases where 5 DPS can clear without hating their lives and struggling. The deeper irony is that not all DPS can damage or tank, but all tanks or healers can damage. Of all the roles, DPS is MOST replaceable. You will just end fights more slowly. Every healer here who's done even a moderate amount of dungeons should agree that we see fumbling DPS all the time who don't even out-DPS a Scholar. Even if said replaced DPS is an optimal player, replacing a DPS with a tank will slow completion down by about 8%, and with a healer, it will slow completion speed down by about 12%. However, you will also be the safest of safe runs.

You're also being unreasonable when pretending that the healer not being present is doable for most parties. Most DPS players take damage in dungeons. It's rare to be in a party where both DPS only take unavoidable damage and leverage Blood Bath / Second Wind to full potential. The typical DPS players will die without a healer, and the run will flop about like a dying fish as a result. Most dungeons I take part in (even at level cap) feature my healer propping up the DPS with most of my weaves, NOT the tank, and that's just fine. If tanks don't wall-to-wall every pulls and keep themselves alive, I'm quite happy for them to have that agency over their own survival.

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

There are a lot of issue with healers right now, but using that Xenos video as an example is not the right call.
If you have a contender for the best warrior tank in the world cycling defensive cooldowns, and a team of savage raiding streamers, and you're going into an early-expansion story dungeon, then you don't need a healer. The reasoning is that people doing their jobs this well are rewarded by allowing the healer to DPS for the entire dungeon, and having the healer as a safety net rather than a necessity.

He himself said he was playing like garbage and anyone can do this, if mouse clicking their abilities and slotting decimate mid dungeon is skillful play we still have a problem.

I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic.

[CerusSerenade]

He himself said he was playing like garbage and anyone can do this, if mouse clicking their abilities and slotting decimate mid dungeon is skillful play we still have a problem.

I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic.

Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

[Illydth]

Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

Are you actually arguing that an entire role SHOULD be made obsolete simply because there are skilled players in the group? Understand your statement: Roles are supposed to have clear identities...your argument is that the healing role should NOT have a clear identity from the DPS role or Tank role assuming that the players in that role have enough skill?

If that's so, were is my threat acquisition button or my 100% Equivalent Red DPS? Are you telling me that I'm not doing the same damage a rogue is doign because i'm not pressing my buttons fast enough?

[CerusSerenade]

Are you actually arguing that an entire role SHOULD be made obsolete simply because there are skilled players in the group? Understand your statement: Roles are supposed to have clear identities...your argument is that the healing role should NOT have a clear identity from the DPS role or Tank role assuming that the players in that role have enough skill?

If that's so, were is my threat acquisition button or my 100% Equivalent Red DPS? Are you telling me that I'm not doing the same damage a rogue is doign because i'm not pressing my buttons fast enough?

Where did I say that I think roles SHOULD be obsolete? I said: "Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player."

If your irate state of mind is hampering your ability to read or discuss this honestly perhaps you should go outside for a while.

[Illydth]

Where did I say that I think roles SHOULD be obsolete? I said: "Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player."

If your irate state of mind is hampering your ability to read or discuss this honestly perhaps you should go outside for a while.

If you aren't arguing that classes SHOULD be obsolete, what was your response intended for? The post you jumped in on stated "I also don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete anyway, that's just not a healthy party dynamic." - and you choose to post a contrairian response.

I don't thikn i'm deluded in assuming your post is in disagreement with that statement since you posted in disagreement with that statement. How else would you like this thread to take your response to "I don't think skillful play should render one of your party members obsolete?"

Or are you going to nit-pick the words "party member" instead of "class" or "role"?

[XiaoShengwu]

Roles are supposed to have clear identities...your argument is that the healing role should NOT have a clear identity from the DPS role or Tank role assuming that the players in that role have enough skill?

.....-looks at post-......-looks at strike-.....-looks back at post-......-looks back at strike-.....

[aiqa]

Skill differences in MMO's have frequently and consistently made entirely player's worth of difference if not more. We see it all the time in day 1 Alliance raids. The Ultimate player vs the casual player.

You claim it shouldn't, but the only way that works is if you actively try to keep out or punish low skill players to rectify the sheer difference in performance.

That is why an effective trinity system need pretty extreme differences in performance in the unique qualities of roles. So healers needs to do most heals by far, a tank needs to mitigate most damage by far, and a dps needs to do most damage by far. If the heals from healers do 4 times more HPS on a tank then the tank's selfheals, even in the situation that works best for tank selfheals, there is a lot of room to lower difficulty while still requiring all roles for do the content optimally.

And dungeons have a rather clever dynamic difficulty. The pulls are the part that requires most healing and mitigation. If a few of the most casual healers can't keep a tank alive during the biggest pulls... well nobody is forcing you to do double pulls.

[OliviaLugria]

My favorite take away from xeno's vid was that 1T3D was easily doable for normal players.

I hope to see a mass of pfs for 1T3D so we can all benefit from faster runs and less ques.