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  1. #301
    Player
    ForsakenRoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Posts
    2,338
    Character
    Samantha Redgrayve
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    Finally, I'd like to understand what is the highest level of content completed as a healer by any of the individuals calling for the strike. I ask this because it feels awkward to call for dungeons to be the strongest showcase of healer need. Dungeons, specifically story dungeons, are meant to be accessed by the community as a whole. Anyone who has purchased Dawntrail will have to go through the story and complete the dungeons.

    And before the healer-less TOP clear is mentioned, that one clear (which undoubtedly required a great deal of effort to pull off along with some luck) is not the norm for the community. To date, I have not seen a single PF for The Omega Protocol that is seeking to complete it with less than 2 healers. In other words, it is unfair to blow up these edge cases

    The addition of more mitigation and healing throughput suggests that there will be more healing-intensive mechanics that are on the horizon in Dawntrail
    1: I've done ultimates as a healer. The reason that Dungeons are used as the 'strongest showcase' of why Healers need to be addressed is because almost everybody does dungeons. Only 10% of players participate in Savage, or only 4% participate in Ultimates, or whatever varying percentage it is per world. But almost every player is going to do the easier content like a dungeon, a roulette, a normal trial, because they're doing the story, or they're levelling the job, or they're doing it for tomes. The idea that a job, or in this case, a role, should be 100% reliant on the difficulty of the content to determine whether it's 'engaging' or not is asinine. I shouldn't have to do week 1 Savage and Ultimate to have fun with my Job, I want to be able to go into EX roulettes and have fun on it there too.

    2: Trying to get the 'before you mention the thing that completely obliterates my stance' doesn't prevent it from obliterating your stance. Nobody is saying that the healerless TOP clear didn't take skill, or luck. The fact that it happened at all is the issue. It should not have been possible in the first place. The fight has a mechanic that demands 'You Healer LB3 this or you die'. Trying to bend over backwards to defend the fact that Healers are not needed in the hardest content in the game with 'oh well it took a lot of skill, and nobody else does it because it's so much more stress/skill required and people prefer the path of least resistance' is comical. Because Yoshida himself said 'if you want a challenge, try Ultimate'. Well, that ultimate (DSR at the time) was solo-healed. TOP was no-healed. For a game that is built on the Holy Trinity, being able to remove one of the three Trinity members entirely, in the hardest content in the game, is a stain on the game's design. Please do remember that, when it was discovered in ARR that Ramuh EX could be cleared without a Tank by having Titan Egi tank it, it was hotfixed almost instantly. Tanks are unrequired? Emergency patch! Healers are unrequired? /shrug, apparently.

    3: Is this your first expansion, by any chance, because people have said that for every expansion since SHB, including SHB. We have not seen an increase in healing required that is anywhere close to the increase in healing output we receive in each expansion. Our HPS increases vastly out-pace the required HPS in content, every time. The line 'we will have to heal more, thats why they're giving us more healing tools' is the stalest copium on the market

    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    Care to provide some specific examples of engaging content that is "not a challenge?" I think that would help me understand your point a bit more.
    Stormblood dungeons as SCH were the perfect middle point between 'accessibility' and 'engaging/challenging'. If you wanted to just chill your way through the dungeon, you could just Broil things, or Miasma 2 occasionally, or even just AFK (not recommended, but it won't cause you to 'fail' the dungeon). If you wanted to be more 'tryhard', you could Bio/Miasma, Bane the packs, use Miasma2 for movement and Energy Drain to make the movement a damage gain instead of a loss, making sure to Shadowflare at a time where you don't need to overwrite it with Soil in the near future, etc. The 'pain point' of Cleric Stance was removed with SB. We didn't need the 'accessibility' of having every DOT condensed into one, once-per-30s button press.

    edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    I appreciate you providing a bit more specificity, but I'm looking for the next layer down to really comprehend your point (i.e. a specific boss or set of mechanics). Gesturing to a suite of dungeons isn't quite allowing me grasp at what you're getting at.
    You're asking us which specific piece of content. We're saying 'it doesn't matter which piece of content, because it's not the Content that was the entire source of the Complexity back then, it was a combination of the Job design AND the Content design'. If the Content design sucked, then we could make up for the lack of challenge from the Content by interacting with more of the challenge available within our Job's design. Now, we're entirely beholden to the Content design, hoping that we get to have fun. And if the Content design falls flat (see P6S, P7S, P11S to an extent), then the Job design we no longer have, cannot make up for the lack of engagement from the Content.
    (25)
    Last edited by ForsakenRoe; 06-10-2024 at 04:59 AM.

  2. #302
    Player
    EusisLandale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    548
    Character
    Eira Landale
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    I appreciate you providing a bit more specificity, but I'm looking for the next layer down to really comprehend your point (i.e. a specific boss or set of mechanics). Gesturing to a suite of dungeons isn't quite allowing me grasp at what you're getting at.
    It's not about the bosses exactly. It's about what you could do specifically.
    Back then on SCH we had quite a few DoTs to spin (and not all on the same 30s duration either) on top of being potentially able to optimize aetherflow usage (both for dmg and MP regen (yes mp was important back then) due to quickened aetherflow reducing the cooldown on it.
    At any given point, if you didn't need to heal, you actually had things to manage and engage with.
    (6)

  3. #303
    Player
    Silver-Strider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,753
    Character
    Silver Strider
    World
    Famfrit
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    Reading this - I have information I'd like from those calling for a strike.

    Firstly, it seems to me that the straw that has broke the metaphorical camel's back is the successful completion of the story dungeon in the Media Tour build of Dawntrail. With that being the case, is it a fair assessment to say that a central goal of this strike is to make it so healers are required to execute on that type of content? That is, it is this group's opinion that there should be no scenario where one can complete a dungeon without a healer present?
    I can't speak for everyone on this but for myself, it's not so much that content can be completed without healers but more so that Healer design runs counterintuitive to the content design; Damage is infrequent but I have 20+ healing abilities, I spent most of my time casting DPS spells, but I have all of 2-3 skills to do that with. Adding on to that is the increased survivability being added to other jobs that makes those 20+ healing abilities feel even more redundant. Even in the hardest content in the game, you can ignore half of those 20+ healing abilities and can still complete them. Furthermore, there is an increase in mechanics that are unsalvageable if people make mistakes, such as body checks, in which no amount of healing abilities is going to resolve them. It's layers upon layers of issues that have been building up for years on end now and the media tour showcasing that they've tripled down on these issues again was what finally broke me.

    Secondly. what brings you joy as a healer? Why do you play the job? For me, I appreciate that the power I'm furnished with as it pertains to the health of the party. I derive joy from seeing no damage done to the party because of extra strong shields or recovering the party to full from low health with the press of a couple of buttons.
    The skill expression of healing. Back in ARR, I didn't have a plethora of oGCDs and actually had to learn to manage my MP. I couldn't just Spam Cure 2 and Medica 2 thru every bit of content that was available. I had to be smart in when I cast my skills because, if I let the tank get too low, I knew I had a 2.5s Cast before the next Heal would hit them to get them out of that situation and that they didn't have a means of healing themselves within that time frame. Fast Forward to now, and not only can the Tank heal themselves to full in a master of seconds but almost every DPS can help out on top of my own instant cast heals. There's very little skill expression left for healers because there's nothing to do but memorize a fight pattern and plan out your heals accordingly while still having safeties if someone messes up, assuming it's possible to cover those mess ups in the first place. The small handful of possible skill expressions left on healers is limited to SCH's Energy Drain usage and AST's high APM burst phase, the latter of which is being streamlined away.

    Finally, I'd like to understand what is the highest level of content completed as a healer by any of the individuals calling for the strike.
    Mostly Savage Raids. I've long since stopped being in a Static Midway thru SB after completing Sigmascape but will periodically go into Savage PFs whenever the mood strikes me nowadays. I've tried Ultimates but I don't have the time available to dedicate to learning and clearing them sadly.

    In other words, it is unfair to blow up these edge cases when the reality is that the community will always opt for the path of least resistance when completing content - and that path will mostly entail having 2 healers for most 8-man content.
    While the edge cases could be dismissed as sheer skill and luck, the fact of the matter is that there are also solo heal clears of Savage and Ultimate raids as well to consider. While still edge cases, the fact is that's still a bad sign in regards to Healers that these edge cases keep popping up more and more frequently as time goes on and are even happening on patch, meaning power creep alone is not the culprit. While the community might take the path of least resistance, it also doesn't mean that it can be wholly dismissed either and should be discussed so as to identify why this is the case and as many have pointed out in the past, it is due to the ever increasing tools being made available to other jobs that reduce the need for healers on top of Healer toolkits themselves being over toned to deal with the infrequent damage that game does throw out. This wasn't a problem in the past when DPS/Tanks had 1-2 tools at most to help supplement heals but now, you're looking at 4-5+ skills that are doing so, across multiple different jobs and DT is just adding on to this problem even further. Past trends have already shown that SE is hesitant to increase incoming damage that would warrant these new tools even being needed so if they're not willing to address that issue, what else is there left for us to do but to force the issue in this manner?
    (20)
    Last edited by Silver-Strider; 06-10-2024 at 10:40 AM.

  4. #304
    Player
    TheDruidOcelot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Posts
    60
    Character
    N'qehbe Moshroca
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 78
    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    I appreciate you providing a bit more specificity, but I'm looking for the next layer down to really comprehend your point (i.e. a specific boss or set of mechanics). Gesturing to a suite of dungeons isn't quite allowing me grasp at what you're getting at.
    ok so. SPECIFIC EXAMPLE: in the Aery, before they changed it for duty support, Estinien acted as an IMMOBILE npc that would frequently be targeted by attacks or hit by aoes. (when the minions spawned they would IMMEDIATELY rush him, so the tank also had to pick them up quickly) and if he died, the party wiped. because if he wasn't alive to use the eye to create a shield, the party would die to nidhogg's breath attack.

    that was HEALER-SPECIFIC content during that fight.
    (15)

  5. #305
    Player
    OliviaLugria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2024
    Posts
    477
    Character
    Olivia Lugria
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe View Post
    1:

    Stormblood dungeons as SCH were the perfect middle point between 'accessibility' and 'engaging/challenging'. If you wanted to just chill your way through the dungeon, you could just Broil things, or Miasma 2 occasionally, or even just AFK (not recommended, but it won't cause you to 'fail' the dungeon). If you wanted to be more 'tryhard', you could Bio/Miasma, Bane the packs, use Miasma2 for movement and Energy Drain to make the movement a damage gain instead of a loss, making sure to Shadowflare at a time where you don't need to overwrite it with Soil in the near future, etc. The 'pain point' of Cleric Stance was removed with SB. We didn't need the 'accessibility' of having every DOT condensed into one, once-per-30s button press.
    Long quote to just say SB scholar is the baseline for good healer gameplay in all content. It had just enough depth in solo play and dungeons to keep you engaged while it became a master strategist in higher end duties.

    I still remember watching the shadowbringer showcase with enthusiasm only to be crushed as they gutted my most beloved job.
    (14)

  6. #306
    Player
    AmiableApkallu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    1,029
    Character
    Tatanpa Nononpa
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by KLuz View Post
    This goes back to my question of what makes healing exciting or fulfilling for you in the first place. I am fulfilled at all levels when I play healer personally, but that is because my expectations are framed appropriately with the content I'm engaging with. In a dungeon, I see that as my chance to do mostly whatever I want because that content is not aimed to challenged my specific skill level of healer.
    As long as "whatever you want" is "twiddle your thumbs", "mash one button repeatedly", "overheal just because", or some combination thereof, then sure. I prefer to actually have some fun, though.

    I agree that healer DPS kits aren't incredibly branched and complex; but I think that would place more pressure on gamers on the left side of the bell curve.
    If you queue into a dungeon as healer, your first job is to heal, to keep the party alive. Having the potential for more than 1111111 in terms of dealing damage doesn't change that, and you shouldn't call yourself a healer or queue as one if you can't admit that basic fact. A healer's healing kit needs to be easily grokked if you want to set the bar low, not the DPS kit.
    (7)

  7. #307
    Player
    EusisLandale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    548
    Character
    Eira Landale
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDruidOcelot View Post
    ok so. SPECIFIC EXAMPLE: in the Aery, before they changed it for duty support, Estinien acted as an IMMOBILE npc that would frequently be targeted by attacks or hit by aoes. (when the minions spawned they would IMMEDIATELY rush him, so the tank also had to pick them up quickly) and if he died, the party wiped. because if he wasn't alive to use the eye to create a shield, the party would die to nidhogg's breath attack.

    that was HEALER-SPECIFIC content during that fight.
    I think Tam-Tara Hard had a fight like that too? The one with the lala locked in the center with the damage orbs drifting to him. Healers needed to watch the players eating the orbs, while also topping the lala off after any got through.
    (8)

  8. #308
    Player
    TheDruidOcelot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2022
    Posts
    60
    Character
    N'qehbe Moshroca
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 78
    Quote Originally Posted by EusisLandale View Post
    I think Tam-Tara Hard had a fight like that too? The one with the lala locked in the center with the damage orbs drifting to him. Healers needed to watch the players eating the orbs, while also topping the lala off after any got through.
    yes it does, and still does, since its mechanics weren't changed for duty support (since it isn't an msq dungeon), its actually challenging MiNe, but pretty engaging with normal sync as well.
    (6)

  9. #309
    Player
    Jeycht's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    286
    Character
    Jeycht Rechton
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sani2341 View Post
    How further down do you need me to go?

    Dig for old SCH Tooltipps in the way Back machine to give you the exact timings on the DoT durations and quickened Aetherflow?
    Would that actually help with getting you to understand that the issue is the jobs for the most Part not the msq level content?
    How is that more engaging? What "challenge" are you talking about in those old dungeons? Maybe Bardam first full pull was hard as sch (I know I wouldn't want to do it if I wasn't whm) and I mean the full pack start to first wall,that almost nobody did.
    (0)
    Clean everything before any nerf is my goal. No matter the time needed to reach the last hp and beat it.
    twitch.tv/jeycht

  10. #310
    Player
    Kacho_Nacho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    2,680
    Character
    Kacho Nacho
    World
    Coeurl
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 98
    Quote Originally Posted by EusisLandale View Post
    It's not about the bosses exactly. It's about what you could do specifically.


    At any given point, if you didn't need to heal, you actually had things to manage and engage with.
    Exactly. Many players have suggested the way to improve healers is to make the content harder. I feel this is the wrong approach.

    To expand on what you said, the best approach is to give healers the option to make choices on what to do, even when they don't need to heal.
    (10)

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