#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[ImTired]

Off the top of my head paladin gcd rotation is 1,2,3,4,5,5,5. Then during burst it adds 6,6,6. Then they have oGCDs 7,8,9, 10, 11 to weave through those.

The designers have the philosophy that "healers need to heal" why is it not "tanks need to tank" and fill 90% of their kit with defensives.

Like, the tanks should have at most 4 dps buttons and "the fun" should be from using their extensive mitigation tools to minimize the damage they take and hold aggro. "But what about the casual content where those tools are extremely redundant?" Some may ask. Don't worry, just go play ultimate!

So what about the other tanks? You keep putting them all in one box, when we all know WAR is the issue here. It's like saying all DPS are like RDM for their sustain when in reality RDM has the lowest damage compared to their other DPS brothers BECAUSE of them having more utility akin to a healer. And even then they have HUGE sacrifices in order to heal/raise. Same thing for something like Dancer, low damage, but makes up for it through the semi-okay heal that is on a long cooldown and their buffs for their dance partner. BRD as well.

Stop making general statements for the other two roles, so we can make proper suggestions for the good of the WHOLE game, so the healer role can be improved.

[aiqa]

So what about the other tanks? You keep putting them all in one box, when we all know WAR is the issue here. It's like saying all DPS are like RDM for their sustain when in reality RDM has the lowest damage compared to their other DPS brothers BECAUSE of them having more utility akin to a healer. And even then they have HUGE sacrifices in order to heal/raise. Same thing for something like Dancer, low damage, but makes up for it through the semi-okay heal that is on a long cooldown and their buffs for their dance partner. BRD as well.

Stop making general statements for the other two roles, so we can make proper suggestions for the good of the WHOLE game, so the healer role can be improved.

Have you even read to a significant part of this thread. All your objections have been adressed multiple times. The complaints about diluting healer roles have been about mostly WAR, and slightly less about PLD. You should read the posts in the context of the rest of the thread. Don't assume people complaining about tank self sustain mean specifically DRK, they are probably just to lazy to say "mostly WAR, and PLD close behind, and sometimes even GNB, but DRK is probably fine" every time.

And about your complaints that all your points are ignored. You only have a few posts in total, there couldn't have been more than 3 that were ignored in the previous 250 pages. That can happen if people think there is something more interesting to discuss.

[ImTired]

Have you even read to a significant part of this thread. All your objections have been adressed multiple times. The complaints about diluting healer roles have been about mostly WAR, and slightly less about PLD. You should read the posts in the context of the rest of the thread. Don't assume people complaining about tank self sustain mean specifically DRK, they are probably just to lazy to say "mostly WAR, and PLD close behind, and sometimes even GNB, but DRK is probably fine" every time.

And about your complaints that all your points are ignored. You only have a few posts in total, there couldn't have been more than 3 that were ignored in the previous 250 pages. That can happen if people think there is something more interesting to discuss.

Actually, I have read a lot of the posts in this thread and people HAVE been lumping all the tanks again numerous times. I would have to go back 100+ pages, but people have done it several times in this thread. So don't assume I haven't been keeping up. I've been noting the arguments on both sides and taking into consideration what has been going on, but this thread has become so hostile for people that actually came in to try and keep a neutral stance, while pointing out the holes on both sides of the fence, and it just spirals into a mess.

Perhaps if people remained constructive, instead of feeling the need to be snarky, sarcastic, rude and downright insulting other cultures things would be far more constructive.

[OliviaLugria]

So what about the other tanks? You keep putting them all in one box, when we all know WAR is the issue here. It's like saying all DPS are like RDM for their sustain when in reality RDM has the lowest damage compared to their other DPS brothers BECAUSE of them having more utility akin to a healer. And even then they have HUGE sacrifices in order to heal/raise. Same thing for something like Dancer, low damage, but makes up for it through the semi-okay heal that is on a long cooldown and their buffs for their dance partner. BRD as well.

Stop making general statements for the other two roles, so we can make proper suggestions for the good of the WHOLE game, so the healer role can be improved.

(has literally made 0 statements indicating this opinion about tanks. Has also posted the opinion that War/Pld are op in dungeons, Gnb can be tough but doable, and Drk is a struggle when doing 1T3D. I dunno which post your reading that indicates I have some problem with the dps :l. Your post also has nothing to do with my statement since I wanted to show proof that YOU LUMPED ALL THE TANKS ROTATIONS into 1,2,3,1,2,3,4 when taking 1 look at Gunbreaker disproves your argument)

WOW! RDM has to sacrifice some dps for using some (but not all) of its utility? What a great design idea! Maybe tanks should have a system like that to. Several free abilities that can be used at no expense, but also have some of their abilities be a dps loss to make them decide if they really need to use it or not. Really great thinking!

If you want to argue about warrior go find someone who actually disagrees with you... I want more buttons to press when there's no healing required, I want more damage to heal, and I want unique ways to heal that damage.

I am very serious about my tank changes though. They're tanks! They should be mitigating damage and holding aggro. Think about what a tank looks like. They're this bulky thing with a huge barrel and maybe a mounted gun. They should follow what the role is named after and decrease the number of dps buttons to 2 or 3. They are way to much like DPS now, and if you want to DPS instead of tank you should go play DPS.

[sweetietreat]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this, because I've seen it asked a few times and it's either been glossed over, swept under the rug, or otherwise the narrative has been changed... But do people, again, in favour, participate in the end-game content that the full kits are more designed/aimed towards? Do you do Savage, Ultimates, EX Trials/Unreal, or Criterion? I saw a random comment (lost somewhere within the 250 pages, jesus), that someone said DPS needed to take more damage... so obviously that specific person hasn't.

But, majority in favour... do you just do the "casual" content? Example: MSQ/side dungeons, normal Trials and normal raids? Because if so... Obviously you won't be using your full healing kit... it's not meant for that type of content. At least, I hope you aren't using your full kit during that type of content, because that means everything's gone tits up, usually.

If anyone could give an actual answer, without changing the narrative, of why full healer kits should be changed for "casual" content, when that's not what they're aimed towards. And if you, yourself, lean more toward the "high-end" or "casual" type of content... I'm rather curious.

[ImTired]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this, because I've seen it asked a few times and it's either been glossed over, swept under the rug, or otherwise the narrative has been changed... But do people, again, in favour, participate in the end-game content that the full kits are more designed/aimed towards? Do you do Savage, Ultimates, EX Trials/Unreal, or Criterion? I saw a random comment (lost somewhere within the 250 pages, jesus), that someone said DPS needed to take more damage... so obviously that specific person hasn't.

But, majority in favour... do you just do the "casual" content? Example: MSQ/side dungeons, normal Trials and normal raids? Because if so... Obviously you won't be using your full healing kit... it's not meant for that type of content. At least, I hope you aren't using your full kit during that type of content, because that means everything's gone tits up, usually.

If anyone could give an actual answer, without changing the narrative, of why full healer kits should be changed for "casual" content, when that's not what they're aimed towards. And if you, yourself, lean more toward the "high-end" or "casual" type of content... I'm rather curious.

My points have been glossed over several times as well. I don't get it, when someone actually points out something that is not hostile or points out something logical it gets skipped. Do people want to solve the issue, or do they want to complain, while trying to attack others. Like, I'm genuinely confused of the constant goalpost moving on both sides.

[ty_taurus]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this...

Not everyone does. I have healed savage, I have also DPSed in savage. I see many make the argument that healing gets more engaging when progging savage fights. Rinon talks about this, how there's nothing quite like the experience of blind prog, testing out each new mechanic, and planning out your resources. And there's nothing wrong with that being a positive experience.

The point being made is that it shouldn't matter if you're playing easy content. Games are played to be enjoyed. If a game is not enjoyable in most types of content but is only enjoyable in very specific circumstances, that is still a failure of the game. I should feel that playing a healer is fun and rewarding no matter whether I'm progging savage, doing reclears, running my roulettes, doing field ops, soloing a deep dungeon, blind running alliance raids, or anything else. Healers used to feel fun and rewarding even in easier content before Shadowbringers. Why is it sacrilege to want that again?


It's not about changing healers just for casual content. Changes should apply universally for all that content. It's about ensuring that the resources available to the player are proportional to the content of the game. Our damage tools and healing tools should reflect the gameplay we're engaging in. And even in the example of savage, the fun part of healing savage is fleeting, because once you've solved the riddle sotospeak, it's just repetition at that point, and you once again flood your gameplay with Glares and Doses.

I am somewhere in the middle. I don't find Savage that challenging, but I find the time investment less enjoyable. I prefer more chaotic types of content where a lot is happening and lots of people are prone to making mistakes that don't just wipe the raid. I really want to be excited for the field ops content coming later during DT, but I want to do so as a Sage that feels fun and dynamic. I dread the idea of running around zapping enemies to death with dozens of Dosis III casts. I want to have a variety of attacks to cycle through.

[Loggos]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this, because I've seen it asked a few times and it's either been glossed over, swept under the rug, or otherwise the narrative has been changed... But do people, again, in favour, participate in the end-game content that the full kits are more designed/aimed towards? Do you do Savage, Ultimates, EX Trials/Unreal, or Criterion? I saw a random comment (lost somewhere within the 250 pages, jesus), that someone said DPS needed to take more damage... so obviously that specific person hasn't.

But, majority in favour... do you just do the "casual" content? Example: MSQ/side dungeons, normal Trials and normal raids? Because if so... Obviously you won't be using your full healing kit... it's not meant for that type of content. At least, I hope you aren't using your full kit during that type of content, because that means everything's gone tits up, usually.

If anyone could give an actual answer, without changing the narrative, of why full healer kits should be changed for "casual" content, when that's not what they're aimed towards. And if you, yourself, lean more toward the "high-end" or "casual" type of content... I'm rather curious.

There are many people in this thread who play hardcore content on a regular basis who have pointed out that they still have major downtimes where they just press their one damage skill plus their dot.
People have also pointed out that you shouldn't have to play harder content to have fun, esp. in a game where only a small percentage of people do hardcore content.
If the dev team's idea is "one kit that can be used in any type of content" then it should also be fun in any kind of content.
Obviously casual content is not as challenging as hardcore content but in terms of fun the casual game play experience for healers is even duller relative to the experiene of other classes. Spamming your one attack skill for the vast majority of the encounter is a problem across the board.

I'll quote something I wrote earlier on that issue:

Even in normal content I still have more fun on DPS because I get to press pretty much all my buttons if I want to, esp. if I try to give myself a little challenge to optimise my rotation. The harder the fight the more challenging it becomes to keep pressing all buttons perfectly. But since my rotation is more or less self-contained I can also use a tryhard min-maxed rotation on a dungeon boss and it will have a positive effect --> the boss dies faster.
Do I need to perfect my mudra burst mini game on Nin on random boss number 28? No, but it's still more satisfying than spamming 1.
As a healer I am really only engaged when others are bad. Our job is mostly reactive (or anticipating) to what bosses and players do. But if they don't take much damage then this renders parts of our kit useless.
Unlike a DPS, who can always use their kit for better outcomes, there is no positive effect if I use healing skills when not needed. Sure, I can use both earthly star and macrocosmos together just to feel something, but their overhealing does nothing. It doesn't speed up the fight or benefit the party.

This point has been mentioned before several times but it really can't be repeated enough: healers are the class that gets more boring the better everyone gets.
We are literally the "inverse fun" job.

Compare this to a DPS who gets more fun the better they (and everyone else) get. Optimising DPS means striving to execute your rotation perfectly while dealing with mechanics of varying difficulty, which works even better when you are not dead, i.e., your healers and tanks play well.

And to people who say "go play savage or ultimate": Naturally, harder content will always be more fun (for those who seek gameplay challenges) than normal content.

But healers shouldn't have to play savage+ just to get on the same level of fun as other classes.
(And even in the case of savage+, raiders often report that the one button spam and boring healing scenarios are still a problem for many, once groups have got the fight down.
Someone in this or another thread cynically called healer a prog job.)

In normal content our fun relative to that of other classes is lower (even if other classes are bored too).
We should have the same level of fun (or lack thereof :’P ) as other classes in all kinds of content.

Saying it should be normal for an entire role to have an even worse time in the majority of content because, hey, at least you can potentially find some fun in the limited amount of (very) hard content makes no sense.

(Also keep in mind that hard content requires a lot of time and commitment that not everyone may have. FF14 is pretty much all or nothing in this regard because there is no real midcore content.
Also, sometimes you just want to jump into a roulette or a normal raid to have some light, casual fun.)

[Blankit]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this, because I've seen it asked a few times and it's either been glossed over, swept under the rug, or otherwise the narrative has been changed... But do people, again, in favour, participate in the end-game content that the full kits are more designed/aimed towards? Do you do Savage, Ultimates, EX Trials/Unreal, or Criterion? I saw a random comment (lost somewhere within the 250 pages, jesus), that someone said DPS needed to take more damage... so obviously that specific person hasn't.

But, majority in favour... do you just do the "casual" content? Example: MSQ/side dungeons, normal Trials and normal raids? Because if so... Obviously you won't be using your full healing kit... it's not meant for that type of content. At least, I hope you aren't using your full kit during that type of content, because that means everything's gone tits up, usually.

If anyone could give an actual answer, without changing the narrative, of why full healer kits should be changed for "casual" content, when that's not what they're aimed towards. And if you, yourself, lean more toward the "high-end" or "casual" type of content... I'm rather curious.

Hi! I'd like to share my experience regarding high-end content. I've cleared 8 raids out of 12 during Endwalker, plus all of the extremes. All of them were relevant content at the time. Out of all these fights, only p10s required me to *think* about managing my heals, and only for a specific mechanic (I'm sure we all know what I'm talking about).

That aside, only a couple of OGCDs are required (IF there's any healing required at all) most of the time. That means I've spent a LOT of time Broiling my way to the clear, unfortunately it gets boring VERY fast. Of course, there will be spicy runs where I have to heal more than usual, but again, we shouldn't hope for our teammates to mess up in order to have fun.

Since this is also my first post, I'd like to add I personally prefer having a some more damage buttons instead of nerfing other jobs/increasing the damage everyone receives, because that means I'd be using 2 ogcds instead of 1 while I keep spamming Broil. And if people think this would be too hard for "casual" players, keep in mind that the kit would still be the same, just with more stuff to do for people trying to have fun in high end content.

People wanting to enjoy their role should NOT be a controversial topic!
Of course, everyone will share different experiences, but I've been broiling for more than 4 years, i'd like some changes, that's all

[Gemina]

An honest question of everyone in favour of this, because I've seen it asked a few times and it's either been glossed over, swept under the rug, or otherwise the narrative has been changed... But do people, again, in favour, participate in the end-game content that the full kits are more designed/aimed towards? Do you do Savage, Ultimates, EX Trials/Unreal, or Criterion? I saw a random comment (lost somewhere within the 250 pages, jesus), that someone said DPS needed to take more damage... so obviously that specific person hasn't.

But, majority in favour... do you just do the "casual" content? Example: MSQ/side dungeons, normal Trials and normal raids? Because if so... Obviously you won't be using your full healing kit... it's not meant for that type of content. At least, I hope you aren't using your full kit during that type of content, because that means everything's gone tits up, usually.

If anyone could give an actual answer, without changing the narrative, of why full healer kits should be changed for "casual" content, when that's not what they're aimed towards. And if you, yourself, lean more toward the "high-end" or "casual" type of content... I'm rather curious.

I fully admit that I do not(have not) run savage or Ultimate. I do have savage clears, but these are from previous expansions and running them undersized (and as WAR, go figure). I also get called out on it from time to time in an attempt to invalidate my statements. I do run EX and Unreal trials pretty consistently, especially towards the end of a patch before echo can be added to the current EX trial. I am also highly considering entering into savage content this coming expansion. Obviously not as healer while the strike is in effect, but it has got to the point where I am curious about exactly how punishing this content is from a personal perspective.

I wouldn't be honest if I said I don't get to use more of my kit in these duties. However, that is neither here or there. Implementing skills that are only valid to use in the highest forms of content is a design flaw. We are talking about capstone abilities like Expedient, Seraph, Neutral Sect, Macro Cosmos, Pneuma, Haima, Temperance, Liturgy of the Bell that are completely worthless to casual players. They can use these skills if they want, but are total overkill and neither make or break any situation they find themselves in. They often over heal, are DPS neutral, or cannot be pushed to utilize their full capability. Think about it. Even as a casual player you would like to know that your capstone skill is something really cool and useful, and then you find out it is totally useless. Only healers suffer from this, and healers shouldn't have to feel pressured into entering high-end content in order for their strongest abilities to be made valid to use.

On the flip side, content like dungeons and normal mode trails and raids do not have to me made overly difficult in order to warrant having a healer in the party. This is where encounter design comes into play. I wouldn't even say that healing requirements by themselves make content difficult. In this game, content is made difficult by the mechanics that are present inside of an encounter more than anything. The majority of deaths in the game can't even be helped by a healer. All they can do is either rescue them, or raise them.

This dev team, simply put, need to go into their think tanks and figure this out because the formula they are using isn't working. We have devolved and situated into this comfort zone where it is completely unacceptable to fail, and this is wrong. It's a participation trophy mindset that is more detrimental than beneficial over the long run.