#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[aiqa]

I actually think a dps lily spender that's instant cast and low potency (like 150 or 200) is a good solution to sometimes being "forced" to use a lily when you don't need healing but you're about to cap. Also provides a meaningful movement option without being a strict upgrade over Glare (so you'd be rewarded for finding a way to turret).

150 or 200 potency is still an upgrade over Glare spam. Lillies are now perfect dps neutral, any added damage to lilly mechanics is a dps upgrade. And you act like this would be an overal upgrade, it's not going work like that. Damage output is balanced towards the result, not towards the individual spells. This will just mean other parts of WHM have to be nerfed and it has to make more choices between doing more damage and healing. Which is the exact thing they avoided by adding the lilly mechanic. And they did that because WHM players had complained for ages they lacked ogcd, but the devs wanted to keep WHM more gcd focussed. And when heals are not needed, you can already use the lilly heals just for movement and still be fully dps neutral.

So again nope, it's a terrible idea. This will return WHM to "we are lacking ogcd heals", and ruins a perfectly fine mechanic.

[Galvuu]

150 or 200 potency is still an upgrade over Glare spam. Lillies are now perfect dps neutral, any added damage to lilly mechanics is a dps upgrade. And you act like this would be an overal upgrade, it's not going work like that. Damage output is balanced towards the result, not towards the individual spells. This will just mean other parts of WHM have to be nerfed and it has to make more choices between doing more damage and healing. Which is the exact thing they avoided by adding the lilly mechanic. And they did that because WHM players had complained for ages they lacked ogcd, but the devs wanted to keep WHM more gcd focussed. And when heals are not needed, you can already use the lilly heals just for movement and still be fully dps neutral.

So again nope, it's a terrible idea. This will return WHM to "we are lacking ogcd heals", and ruins a perfectly fine mechanic.

I mean, this comes down to encounter design. TOP, P8S and P12S aside, it's common to run into the issue where you overcap on lilies and just throw them into the air so you don't overcap. The cadence of damage (and mechanics overall) is so slow that, aside from a few moments of burst healing, there is nothing to use the lilies for. The lilies themselves when used on Rapture are not even that good unless your cohealer is competent (the raw healing output on Rapture is low). And if your cohealer is competent, well, you won't be needing more than one and Asylum/Liturgy/Temperance anyway. I frequently find myself burning the lilies for movement and to make sure I have Misery for the 2 min burst.
If tank self-healing does get nerfed, then perhaps some of those can be used effectively as Solaces (especially if, some day, FF XIV remembers bosses can do more than 2 auto attacks a minute). Otherwise, it's still optimal to "heal nothing" to line up your Misery. I was just proposing a more exciting use for those lilies. I doubt a 150/300 potency gain per minute is unbalanceable. But I guess I agree with you on one thing- it sure would be nice if there was at least enough incoming damage to justify dropping a few Solaces/Raptures every 30s without it being worthless overhealing.

[aiqa]

I mean, this comes down to encounter design. TOP, P8S and P12S aside, it's common to run into the issue where you overcap on lilies and just throw them into the air so you don't overcap. The cadence of damage (and mechanics overall) is so slow that, aside from a few moments of burst healing, there is nothing to use the lilies for.

They can change the direction of content design. Adding damage abilities to build blood lillies would almost certainly be locked in forever.

The lilies themselves when used on Rapture are not even that good unless your cohealer is competent (the raw healing output on Rapture is low). And if your cohealer is competent, well, you won't be needing more than one and Asylum/Liturgy/Temperance anyway.

Rapture is quite strong with Plenary Indulgence. And it's the only option for Plenary Indulgence that is ogcd ish.

I frequently find myself burning the lilies for movement and to make sure I have Misery for the 2 min burst.
If tank self-healing does get nerfed, then perhaps some of those can be used effectively as Solaces (especially if, some day, FF XIV remembers bosses can do more than 2 auto attacks a minute). Otherwise, it's still optimal to "heal nothing" to line up your Misery. I was just proposing a more exciting use for those lilies.

There is no way to balance dps with healing in FF, dps always win out until healing is so low you can't survive. So add a dps option for lillies and that wins 99% of the time. I am all for more fun, but this has to big downsides. If the devs want to add more dps spells for fun, they can do that without messing with the lilly mechanic.

I doubt a 150/300 potency gain per minute is unbalanceable. But I guess I agree with you on one thing- it sure would be nice if there was at least enough incoming damage to justify dropping a few Solaces/Raptures every 30s without it being worthless overhealing.

You suggested 150 to 200 potency per cast. Lillies build up at a rate of 1 per 20 seconds. So that is 450 to 600 potency per minute, which is quite significant. But sure you can just lower that 50 to 100 potency per cast to get to the 150 to 300 per minute.

I would judge that as follows: as long the damage is worth slotting the spell on your hotbar it will return WHM to avoiding healing.

[ForsakenRoe]

I actually think a dps lily spender that's instant cast and low potency (like 150 or 200) is a good solution to sometimes being "forced" to use a lily when you don't need healing but you're about to cap. Also provides a meaningful movement option without being a strict upgrade over Glare (so you'd be rewarded for finding a way to turret).

A more sensible solution than a damage option (which just becomes 'the best option' and causes WHM to want to avoid healing entirely as with SHB Misery when it was a damage loss) is to have a Barrier application spender, that is weaker than SCH/SGE equivalents. For example, SCH shields are 540p for Adlo, and 320 for Succor. So why not let WHM apply Barriers with 400-500p and 200-250p respectively, so that if we don't 'need' healing and don't want to cap, we can still make use of a Barrier. I've even got names for them: Afflatus Bastion, and Afflatus Sanctuary

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split a little, but I think it's far better that than ending up with some players purposely not healing because 'itd cost me a damage resource'

[Galvuu]

A more sensible solution than a damage option (which just becomes 'the best option' and causes WHM to want to avoid healing entirely as with SHB Misery when it was a damage loss) is to have a Barrier application spender, that is weaker than SCH/SGE equivalents. For example, SCH shields are 540p for Adlo, and 320 for Succor. So why not let WHM apply Barriers with 400-500p and 200-250p respectively, so that if we don't 'need' healing and don't want to cap, we can still make use of a Barrier. I've even got names for them: Afflatus Bastion, and Afflatus Sanctuary

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split a little, but I think it's far better that than ending up with some players purposely not healing because 'itd cost me a damage resource'

Let's be honest. Even SE doesn't seem to care about the barrier/pure healer split anymore. They keep giving barriers to pure healers and raw healing to shielders. Come DT, that split will have become one of the most pointless distinctions this game ever made. I can't believe we lost the dual-sect AST for this nonsense...

[Allegor]

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split...

Wait, that's still a thing? I haven't read much into it but since AST is getting like, 4 new barrier/mits and WHM's lv 100 ability is an aoe barrier, I assumed they officially abolished the 'pure/barrier' split already. It feels counterproductive to give "pure" healers that many defensives when that's what SCH and SGE are (allegedly) for.

[AmiableApkallu]

Wait, that's still a thing? I haven't read much into it but since AST is getting like, 4 new barrier/mits and WHM's lv 100 ability is an aoe barrier, I assumed they officially abolished the 'pure/barrier' split already. It feels counterproductive to give "pure" healers that many defensives when that's what SCH and SGE are (allegedly) for.

WHM's new AoE barrier is a follow up to Temperance, which is quite possibly the most straightjacketed, stingiest way to give the job an AoE barrier. The job is still solidly on the "pure" side of the split. /two cents

[WeakestZenosEnjoyer]

So again nope, it's a terrible idea. This will return WHM to "we are lacking ogcd heals", and ruins a perfectly fine mechanic.

If WHM is lacking heals they won't be able to fit Afflatus Harm anyway and there's no reason to nerf Glare/Misery damage.

If they're not lacking heals, which I'm pretty sure is true past level 50 (Blood Lily is 74 for reference), they can be burned as instant cast damage and the potency can be taken from the Blood Lily, we're not actually trying to increase WHM damage but address all the people that burn it on overheal just to nourish the Blood Lily

[aiqa]

If WHM is lacking heals they won't be able to fit Afflatus Harm anyway and there's no reason to nerf Glare/Misery damage.

If they're not lacking heals, which I'm pretty sure is true past level 50 (Blood Lily is 74 for reference), they can be burned as instant cast damage and the potency can be taken from the Blood Lily, we're not actually trying to increase WHM damage but address all the people that burn it on overheal just to nourish the Blood Lily

At level 50, a WHM primarily uses GCD heals. And Lily heals were introduced to avoid the opportunity cost of GCD heals.

So again, using Lily heals would still have an opportunity cost where you lose DPS to heal. While you can choose to accept that cost, it remains an opportunity cost. Optimal DPS, which is the end all be all in FF, would mean using Lilies for direct damage. If you can't fit those proposed spells, you aren't performing your "job" according to the FF meta.

To get optimal DPS, you'd use Lily heals as little as possible and rely on your co-healer to keep everyone alive. This results in the WHM hardly healing at all, except for using Assize on cooldown (which often results in wasted heals since, unlike Lilies, it lacks flexibility in usage). Your only significant healing would come from longer cooldown OGCD abilities. These longer cooldown abilities are Asylum (90s cooldown) and Liturgy of the Bell (180s cooldown) for AoE healing, and Benediction (180s cooldown), Tetragrammaton (60s cooldown), and Divine Benison (30s cooldown) for single-target healing. Without Lily heals, WHM has very little OGCD AoE healing, which is only sufficient in fights with significant healing support from co-healers or tanks, or when incoming damage is trivial. These latter two are what people are trying to address in this thread.

Even with Lily heals, WHM has the lowest HPS in recent healing statistics on FFLogs for savage content. It doesn't need any further healing nerfs.

If you still disagree, please explain how these issues could be avoided. Do you believe the existing OGCD AoE heals are sufficient for a healer's kit? Asylum is a weak HoT, and Liturgy has a 3 minute cooldown. Without Lilies, you can't use Plenary Indulgence on OGCD heals, reducing AoE healing even further to a level far below what a WAR can do. Or do you think the FF community will stop demanding every last point of damage from players? If so, you'll need a far bigger plan than just a few spell additions.

[Ayer2015]

At level 50, a WHM primarily uses GCD heals. And Lily heals were introduced to avoid the opportunity cost of GCD heals.

So again, using Lily heals would still have an opportunity cost where you lose DPS to heal. While you can choose to accept that cost, it remains an opportunity cost. Optimal DPS, which is the end all be all in FF, would mean using Lilies for direct damage. If you can't fit those proposed spells, you aren't performing your "job" according to the FF meta.

To get optimal DPS, you'd use Lily heals as little as possible and rely on your co-healer to keep everyone alive. This results in the WHM hardly healing at all, except for using Assize on cooldown (which often results in wasted heals since, unlike Lilies, it lacks flexibility in usage). Your only significant healing would come from longer cooldown OGCD abilities. These longer cooldown abilities are Asylum (90s cooldown) and Liturgy of the Bell (180s cooldown) for AoE healing, and Benediction (180s cooldown), Tetragrammaton (60s cooldown), and Divine Benison (30s cooldown) for single-target healing. Without Lily heals, WHM has very little OGCD AoE healing, which is only sufficient in fights with significant healing support from co-healers or tanks, or when incoming damage is trivial. These latter two are what people are trying to address in this thread.

Even with Lily heals, WHM has the lowest HPS in recent healing statistics on FFLogs for savage content. It doesn't need any further healing nerfs.

If you still disagree, please explain how these issues could be avoided. Do you believe the existing OGCD AoE heals are sufficient for a healer's kit? Asylum is a weak HoT, and Liturgy has a 3 minute cooldown. Without Lilies, you can't use Plenary Indulgence on OGCD heals, reducing AoE healing even further to a level far below what a WAR can do. Or do you think the FF community will stop demanding every last point of damage from players? If so, you'll need a far bigger plan than just a few spell additions.

You are acting like people are suggesting changes in a vacuum, exclusive to WHM. It was an example, of which I am sure people would like changes to the other healers as well.
Having the choice of using resources to either heal or damage gives the player the opportunity to manage their play themselves, rather than being systemically forced. Choice makes games more interesting generally.
If a player is so focused on optimal damage over their actual role, perhaps they should just play a dps based job. Hamstringing job design over people choosing to play poorly will just lead us back to where we are now....