Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

[JamsC]

White Mage, in EVERY final fantasy is not a DPS. They are healers. If you have your white mage in FF 1-9 DPS, they do like single digits.

Im sorry but this is just incorrect. White mages in all FF games, especially 1-9, have a range of powerful damaging spells. They most certainly do not do single digits. Final Fantasy as a series has almost always promoted healers dealing damage when recovery isn't required. ARR of this very game was built on that premise. Despite the mistakes recollections of some other posters, we were DPSing as much as we could in Coil 1-5, for example. And most of us enjoyed it

I admit I am a Cleric Stance obsessive. I would love to have it back. But I also wouldn't mind if only one healer - say, scholar - got it. And I think it would also be good if there was a healer whose time was spent mainly on healing and buffing to support the party, rather than DPSing. Overall, healing should be more engaging regardless of whether you are a green DPS or a lover of all thing curative.

[Striker44]

Im sorry but this is just incorrect. White mages in all FF games, especially 1-9, have a range of powerful damaging spells. They most certainly do not do single digits. Final Fantasy as a series has almost always promoted healers dealing damage when recovery isn't required.

That original statement is actually quite accurate. White Mages typically only have very few "offensive" spells, and they're sometimes only effective against undead.

FF1 - They have "Harm" spells that only affect undead enemies, and then all of *one* non-undead specific spell (Holy), which is at the highest tier meaning it's learned very late in the game and you have very limited uses of it. Try having your White Mage use anything else for DPS (e.g. physical attacks), and it's pitiful.

FF2 - Holy and Ultima are the only offensive spells, with Holy being the most expensive white magic spell (and 2nd most expensive spell overall) and Ultima learned from a special book, again both well into the game.

FF3 - Finally we get *one* damaging spell that has upgrades over time (the Aero series), and the usual top-tier, late-game "Holy" spell. In other words, for almost the entire game, if your white mage is doing any DPS, they're spamming one spell over and over (sound familiar?).

FF4 - We're back to losing even that Aero-line. The *only* offensive spell for White Mages is Holy, and as usual, it's the last spell White Mages learn (at a high level late in the game) and costs a lot of MP.

FF5 - Same as FF4. Holy is the *only* offensive spell for the White Mage job.

FF6 - This game used a different system entirely, where you could give any character any combination of magic you wanted through Espers, so there wasn't any actual "white mage" class.

FF7 - This game did something similar, but with materia instead of espers.

FF8 - This likewise had the junction system without a clear "white mage" class.

FF9 - Closest return to white mages, with certain characters having "white magic" abilities. Holy is once again the *only* offensive spell.

So, I'm sorry, but the original poster is *completely* correct. White mages in FF1-9 have very little in the way of damaging spells. In most games, they only have *one* offensive spell, period (and it's not learned until late in the game and costs a lot of MP to use). In FF1, they have an added spell line that only works against undead. In FF3, they have one added spell line that works against anyone, meaning you can spam the same single spell. In all of these games, trying to do physical DPS with a white mage is pointless. FF as a series has never promoted white mages DPS'ing. They best they did was effectively abandon classes altogether and let anyone have any combination of spells they wanted, but by that point the concept of "white mage" itself was gone.

[JamsC]

snip.

It may be my reading comprehension, but I am really struggling to understand how your post disagrees with mine. Kisai’s point, as I understand it, was that white mages could do no dps at all other than single digit damage. I haven’t gone away to check the accuracy of your list yet, but what you have compiled here is just more proof that their point is incorrect. I dont know what else to say.

[Striker44]

It may be my reading comprehension, but I am really struggling to understand how your post disagrees with mine. Kisai’s point, as I understand it, was that white mages could do no dps at all other than single digit damage. I haven’t gone away to check the accuracy of your list yet, but what you have compiled here is just more proof that their point is incorrect. I dont know what else to say.

I'm kinda confused how you could be confused lol. Your claim (which I directly quoted) was "healers have a range of powerful damaging spells" and that the FF series "promoted healers dealing damage when healing wasn't required." I showed repeatedly how healers did not have a range of spells, but rather one single damage spell in most games of the series. Furthermore, given that even said single spell typically isn't learned until very late in the game, for most of the game white mages have no damaging spells at all. The cherry on top is how, even once learned, that spell usually cost so much MP that you could only cast it a few times (without even counting how it would interfere with your ability to heal), you weren't going to be casting it much. In every way possible, white mage/healer characters in the FF1-9 games had few options to deal damage and weren't intended to be DPS'ing when they weren't healing. The *only* exception to that seems to be FF3, where they had one single spell you could spam if desired (which I subtly alluded to how healers work in FF14).

What of course is being left out of this is that healers had a whole slew of *support* spells in these games (various defensive spells like protect/shell, dispels for various statuses, haste/slow for allies/enemies, etc.). What healers *were* intended to do when not healing was cast support magic to provide buffs/debuffs. What they were *not* intended to do is deal direct damage.

[KisaiTenshi]

I'm kinda confused how you could be confused lol. Your claim (which I directly quoted) was "healers have a range of powerful damaging spells" and that the FF series "promoted healers dealing damage when healing wasn't required." I showed repeatedly how healers did not have a range of spells, but rather one single damage spell in most games of the series. Furthermore, given that even said single spell typically isn't learned until very late in the game, for most of the game white mages have no damaging spells at all. The cherry on top is how, even once learned, that spell usually cost so much MP that you could only cast it a few times (without even counting how it would interfere with your ability to heal), you weren't going to be casting it much. In every way possible, white mage/healer characters in the FF1-9 games had few options to deal damage and weren't intended to be DPS'ing when they weren't healing. The *only* exception to that seems to be FF3, where they had one single spell you could spam if desired (which I subtly alluded to how healers work in FF14).

What of course is being left out of this is that healers had a whole slew of *support* spells in these games (various defensive spells like protect/shell, dispels for various statuses, haste/slow for allies/enemies, etc.). What healers *were* intended to do when not healing was cast support magic to provide buffs/debuffs. What they were *not* intended to do is deal direct damage.

Many North American players never played FF1-3, or only played the Pixel remake, which standardized all the combat. The Pixel Remasters are "easier" than the original versions, but 1-4 are even easier than the Japanese versions were originally.

In the first game, the original MSX and Famicom versions, you could only learn 3 spells per level, and could not unlearn spells. The "DPS" spells were "Dia"/"Harm" at level 1, which only worked against undead, Diara at level 3 (undead), Diaga at level 5 (undead), Diaja at level 7 (undead), and Holy (unaspected damage AOE.) You had to rest at an inn to recharge uses. In the later remakes they switched this to MP. Damage in the original version was something like "random x level of spell", since the White mage only had "Holy" that could damage anything, and you didn't get that till the very end game, you were not going to waste spell slots on "Dia" when the other buff's and cleanses were far more useful. Or you could be a player that prefers to buy items and save your casts instead.

The second game The white mage only has "Holy" and "Ultima". Both only obtained near the end of the game (Literately you can only buy Holy when you're looking for Ultima, and is the most expensive spell in the game.) Or you can get it from Tiamat in Pandemonium as a random drop.

FF3 has an explicit "Job" system depending on which version you are playing. Aero is level 2 and does wind damage, Aeroga is level 6, Tornado is level 8, Holy is level 8.

FF4, doesn't have "defined" jobs (as only Rosa and Porom are actually "white mages" in the role we would think of a white mage, while Tellah and Fusoya are technically "Red Mages", and Cecil becomes a Paladin that can cast white magic. Rydia loses white magic when she comes back in favor of summoning.) Rydia has no white magic DPS. "Holy" is the only white magic DPS spell, and can only be cast by Porom and Rosa.

FF5 has explicitly defined "jobs". Again the only DPS white magic spell is Holy at level 6. Red Mages can not access Holy.

FF6 has magic defined by equipped magicite, All characters can cast all magic if you let them, However Terra and Celes are mages as they automatically learn magic. Terra learns Fire (3), Drain (12), Fire 2 (22), Fire 3 (43), Holy (57), Graviga (75), Ultima (99). Celes learns Blizzard at level 1, Ice 2 (26), Ice 3 (43), Flare (81), and Meteor (98). Everyone else needs to learn Holy from Alexander. There is no "Dia" spells.

FF7 has magic defined by equipped materia. "Holy" is a the mcguffin of the series. There is no white magic DPS.

FF8 has the draw system, any party member can learn any magic if they draw it. "Holy" is found late in the game, but it's not the most powerful magic, and difficult to acquire. I could write a whole page on how FF8 magic is a confusing mess. Usually players don't rely on magic in the game, and you want to draw 100 of everything from every monster when you first see it in order to cast the most powerful version of DPS spells. FF8 has a "Holy elemental" effect. Selphie can randomly cast it with her limit break.

FF9 returns to FF4-style jobs. The only White mage DPS is Holy and only Eiko/Beatrix can cast it. Holy can only be cast in late endgame.

It should be pointed out, that the only "DPS" a white magic user can do in FF1-9 other than Holy is to use restorative magic on undead, which is basically what "Dia" is in FF1.

FFX and FFX-2 take a different direction. In FFX, the only white DPS magic is "Holy". In FFX-2 there is a specific "White Mage" job, which again, Holy is like at the end of the garment grid. FFX is closer to FF6 in this regard, as anyone can learn anything, however it's going to involve a lot of grinding if you want Holy on anyone other than Yuna. In FFX-2, it takes a cue from FF5 and does "Job" dress spheres, that allow the character to change jobs, even during combat. But that is a time cost.

Before that point, Squaresoft has never developed a MMORPG.

The common theme here is that "White Mage" only ever had one offense spell. "Holy". Aside from using cure to damage undead/zombies, or raise/life to insta-kill undead, the white mage was not intended to "DPS". They were there to keep your party alive, and unless you grinded in place in a FF game to get to the point where you didn't need to heal (Which was one of the strategies you could do in FF, and several other CRPG's) at all, if you didnt' have the White Mage in the party you were stuck with using potions, which were very expensive, and some items like x-potions and elixirs can't be bought. You can't "spam elixirs" to make defeating the final boss in a FF game to avoid using the healing magic unless you spent a lot of time farming those rare drops.

What has happened in 14, is that initially in 1.0 there was an entirely different direction (Conjurer had 68 abilities, Thaumaturge had like 52 or something) But the original conjurer was basically all elemental magic, and the Thaumaturge was all status effect magic (Dia was over here.) 1.20 all this stuff got re-arranged and we lost like 90% of the stuff that was originally in the game so it would "better align with what players expect of the White and Black mage"

Hence every time we have this argument from players who want more DPS on the healer... have clearly not played any other Final Fantasy game, and indeed players that come from WoW often complain that the game isn't faster with instant gratification, they decry having to sit through cut scenes. There is a lot that can be apologized for in the original 2.0 release from trying to bring back FF1-style jobs that were based on Wizardry's mechanic (where you have to level two jobs and then switch and take 1 or 2 skills with you,) to making the MSQ dungeon's an hour long. Nobody is saying these were ideal. But the way we've gone about asking for fixes and what the developers have gone about fixing it, is at odds.

"Fix dungeons" we ask, "Make dungeons shorter" is what we got. Nobody asked for the 1.0 dungeons to be nerfed for 2.0 and then further nerfed. Are they better now? I'd say they were more interesting before, but boring to repeatedly have to do. Since there is no progress saved when you explore a dungeon, it's better to have the dungeons shorter. The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak is such a shallow imitation of what it was originally, but having to repeatedly do things you did in previous runs gets boring. They could have made these more interesting by having different, shorter, paths through the dungeon if you have different jobs in the party.

"Fix healers" we ask, "make healers redundant" is what we got. Please, considering the 20 other spells that have been a standard kit of the white mage in 7 other FF games, it begs the question of why they removed Protect (protect from physical damage,) and Stone Skin. Then never had Silence, Mini, Confuse, Blink, Shell (protect from magic damage), Reflect. Part of that comes from people insisting on "using all their buttons", thus making things harder. People keep wanting to do content with no thinking.

Take for example, Reflect. There is a strategy in several FF games where you cast Reflect on yourself AND the enemy, and then cast destruction magic on yourself. How would you pull this off in a party? Cast Reflect on the monsters, and then all the caster DPS will be unable to cast, thus ensuring the party gets mad. Cast it on your own party, and self-heals will heal the monster, thus ensuring the party getting mad.

What about casting mini or silence on the monster? Surely that's non-controversial? Well, where have we seen mini in the game? Cerberus and Gilgamesh. There's many places where the enemy can cast a status effect that we can't cast, and we can't cleanse. The majority of the magic white mages had in previous games was to either shield a certain attack, or cleanse a specific debuff. All that got folded into Esuna, and we don't even get to use Esuna very much. Where are the fights that cast petrify, confuse, or mini on the party that you HAVE TO cleanse. No all these drop off after a few seconds, we don't get to do that.

Players asking for the healer to have more DPS actions, don't realize that the "White Mage" in FF games, the healer only has ONE DPS attack, it's an AOE, and it uses ALL MP (which is in fact, how it worked originally.) Scholar only exists in one other FF game, FF3, and the only ability they have is "scan" (weaknesses) and "peep" (reveal remaining HP.) That's where the "tactician" identity in 14 comes in, but the rest is wholecloth invented for 14. We can't have healers work that way in 14 because that would be even LESS FUN, where the healer basically just isn't allowed to do anything except be a DPS bomb because of the insane way people prioritize DPS numbers rather than completion/clear of the duty.

The truth is, people who know the identity of healers, want healers to be the healers they are in other FF games, not turned into "Extra DPS" roles. I'd argue that this continued insistence that the healer "prioritize DPS over Healing" is giving the wrong message to the developers in their telemetry tracking. Healers are being forced to DPS at gunpoint in content because the content doesn't contain enough sustained damage bleeds or things to cleanse.

[Cervani]

Many North American players never played FF1-3, or only played the Pixel remake, which standardized all the combat. The Pixel Remasters are "easier" than the original versions, but 1-4 are even easier than the Japanese versions were originally. - snip

You also forgot FFXI, which was SE's first foray into the MMO genre. It released between FFX and FFX-2.

That being said, FFXI WHM and really any other healer followed the same formula as FFXIV does. WHM for example has Dia and it's damage spell Banish, with Holy at lvl 50. What made FFXI unique in not pigeon-holing healers is the sub job system like they had in FFT. The SJ system was a trinity system killer in and of itself, as it allowed any job to become a healer, a tank or a dps.

Lets use WHM as an example. Sub BLM, and you get access to "most" of the black mage spell kit as well as some of it's traits. Sub NIN, and you become a shadow tank through the use of Utsusemi as well as various damage and enfeebling ninjutsu. Take this a bit further with some of the insane weapons they had in FFXI, the Kraken Club being a massive one. A low damage club at 11 damage with a special ability of "occasionally attacking 2-8 times" on each attack. Thing is, the club was absolutely insane with it's procs, and weaponskills in FFXI were ties to weapons and not the jobs itself. Weaponskills were used via TP, which was gained per weapon hit and weapon type. So you'd only get 6 TP with a single club hit, but the absolutely bonkers amount of hits you were performing made you a machine. So you'd have a WHM/NIN dual-wielding clubs, one of which is a kraken club, mass spamming weaponskills and utterly destroying mobs.

And ANY job could do the above with /nin. Go PLD/WHM for incredible heals with your tank, or /rdm to boost your already insane def and make you a cure machine. Go /dnc with any job and you had self heal, self haste, self damage with enfeebles and could solo pretty much anything out bosses. BLU and BST were so far out there in damage and utility that it's the main reason they are limited jobs in FFXIV and not main ones. If you think BLU is dungeon breaking in FFXIV, it was orders of magnitude stronger in FFXI.

The sub job system was an incredible system that warped the trinity but was incredibly successful both despite of and BECAUSE of it. It saddened me quite a bit when they got rid of it in ARR because it still had potential, in my own opinion. It also stopped what's currently happening in FFXIV from happening in FFXI, as it only promoted variety and ability coverage vs traditional trinity classes stagnant "you are this, and only this" mentality.

I miss FFXI.

[vetch]

You also forgot FFXI, which was SE's first foray into the MMO genre. It released between FFX and FFX-2.

That being said, FFXI WHM and really any other healer followed the same formula as FFXIV does. WHM for example has Dia and it's damage spell Banish, with Holy at lvl 50. What made FFXI unique in not pigeon-holing healers is the sub job system like they had in FFT. The SJ system was a trinity system killer in and of itself, as it allowed any job to become a healer, a tank or a dps.

Lets use WHM as an example. Sub BLM, and you get access to "most" of the black mage spell kit as well as some of it's traits. Sub NIN, and you become a shadow tank through the use of Utsusemi as well as various damage and enfeebling ninjutsu. Take this a bit further with some of the insane weapons they had in FFXI, the Kraken Club being a massive one. A low damage club at 11 damage with a special ability of "occasionally attacking 2-8 times" on each attack. Thing is, the club was absolutely insane with it's procs, and weaponskills in FFXI were ties to weapons and not the jobs itself. Weaponskills were used via TP, which was gained per weapon hit and weapon type. So you'd only get 6 TP with a single club hit, but the absolutely bonkers amount of hits you were performing made you a machine. So you'd have a WHM/NIN dual-wielding clubs, one of which is a kraken club, mass spamming weaponskills and utterly destroying mobs.

And ANY job could do the above with /nin. Go PLD/WHM for incredible heals with your tank, or /rdm to boost your already insane def and make you a cure machine. Go /dnc with any job and you had self heal, self haste, self damage with enfeebles and could solo pretty much anything out bosses. BLU and BST were so far out there in damage and utility that it's the main reason they are limited jobs in FFXIV and not main ones. If you think BLU is dungeon breaking in FFXIV, it was orders of magnitude stronger in FFXI.

The sub job system was an incredible system that warped the trinity but was incredibly successful both despite of and BECAUSE of it. It saddened me quite a bit when they got rid of it in ARR because it still had potential, in my own opinion. It also stopped what's currently happening in FFXIV from happening in FFXI, as it only promoted variety and ability coverage vs traditional trinity classes stagnant "you are this, and only this" mentality.

I miss FFXI.

God, I think I just made the pleading face emoji in real life.

[MagiusNecros]

You also forgot FFXI, which was SE's first foray into the MMO genre. It released between FFX and FFX-2.

That being said, FFXI WHM and really any other healer followed the same formula as FFXIV does. WHM for example has Dia and it's damage spell Banish, with Holy at lvl 50. What made FFXI unique in not pigeon-holing healers is the sub job system like they had in FFT. The SJ system was a trinity system killer in and of itself, as it allowed any job to become a healer, a tank or a dps.

Lets use WHM as an example. Sub BLM, and you get access to "most" of the black mage spell kit as well as some of it's traits. Sub NIN, and you become a shadow tank through the use of Utsusemi as well as various damage and enfeebling ninjutsu. Take this a bit further with some of the insane weapons they had in FFXI, the Kraken Club being a massive one. A low damage club at 11 damage with a special ability of "occasionally attacking 2-8 times" on each attack. Thing is, the club was absolutely insane with it's procs, and weaponskills in FFXI were ties to weapons and not the jobs itself. Weaponskills were used via TP, which was gained per weapon hit and weapon type. So you'd only get 6 TP with a single club hit, but the absolutely bonkers amount of hits you were performing made you a machine. So you'd have a WHM/NIN dual-wielding clubs, one of which is a kraken club, mass spamming weaponskills and utterly destroying mobs.

And ANY job could do the above with /nin. Go PLD/WHM for incredible heals with your tank, or /rdm to boost your already insane def and make you a cure machine. Go /dnc with any job and you had self heal, self haste, self damage with enfeebles and could solo pretty much anything out bosses. BLU and BST were so far out there in damage and utility that it's the main reason they are limited jobs in FFXIV and not main ones. If you think BLU is dungeon breaking in FFXIV, it was orders of magnitude stronger in FFXI.

The sub job system was an incredible system that warped the trinity but was incredibly successful both despite of and BECAUSE of it. It saddened me quite a bit when they got rid of it in ARR because it still had potential, in my own opinion. It also stopped what's currently happening in FFXIV from happening in FFXI, as it only promoted variety and ability coverage vs traditional trinity classes stagnant "you are this, and only this" mentality.

I miss FFXI.

I mean FFXI is superior. Both in Class design, Subjob system and in World building to where exploring the world is a atmospheric treat. Every log in felt like a new adventure.

SE has great MMOs in the vein of DQX and FFXI and Yoshi P just looks in WoW's direction. Pretty baffling to me. Especially since Yoshida was the Chief Planner for Dragon Quest X so he should know better.