Dawntrail's mediatour dungeon was already cleared without healers.

[JamsC]

White Mage, in EVERY final fantasy is not a DPS. They are healers. If you have your white mage in FF 1-9 DPS, they do like single digits.

Im sorry but this is just incorrect. White mages in all FF games, especially 1-9, have a range of powerful damaging spells. They most certainly do not do single digits. Final Fantasy as a series has almost always promoted healers dealing damage when recovery isn't required. ARR of this very game was built on that premise. Despite the mistakes recollections of some other posters, we were DPSing as much as we could in Coil 1-5, for example. And most of us enjoyed it

I admit I am a Cleric Stance obsessive. I would love to have it back. But I also wouldn't mind if only one healer - say, scholar - got it. And I think it would also be good if there was a healer whose time was spent mainly on healing and buffing to support the party, rather than DPSing. Overall, healing should be more engaging regardless of whether you are a green DPS or a lover of all thing curative.

[Aelin_Ashryver]

While I am happy to see changes to AST I was looking for in some fashion, still missing my card manipulation and more time mechanics. I am disheartened at the continued state of healers being so easily made redundant in a majority of content. Since the start of shadowbringers it has felt this way, that's a very long time for a role to be stale and easily removed.

I think if people wanted to make an impact, stop joining PF's for content as a healer. No extreme, no savage etc.

I have read that JP players enjoy the state of tanks presently due to healers not healing, I would argue that SE have conditioned healers to be inattentive in the majority of content because they are simply not needed. I don't need my brain on if I queue into a dungeon and see I have a warrior. So it should come as no shock that when most of the time people need not pay attn, when they finally do they might have some troubles. If the expectation that a healer must heal is consistently applied throughout the game you would have fewer players like this imo. And the role should be known to come with that responsibility, people who don't like that can stick to dps or dip their toe in on WHM as they have the beni oh shoot button. If we were consistently needing to heal you would hear a lot less crying about having a dull dps rotation, healers complain about it because it's all they are doing... 1211111111111...

For no other role is it the case that you are better off without them, if you wan't things to go smoothly and swiftly dps and a tank are needed. Presently, a healer is not. The healer in general content is there mistakes and we have seen in Xeno's video that even when they make multiple F ups and take vulns... it's not enough to be lethal. You don't need a healer in the newest DT dungeon even when you made multiple mistakes, that's unacceptable. The reality of any role with responsibility in any form is some players are incapable of shouldering it, that's fine. This is the case in every mmo. Let healers heal and be needed.

[ZephyrMenodora]

Encounter design and class balance designers should find this to be an abject failure.

[Striker44]

Im sorry but this is just incorrect. White mages in all FF games, especially 1-9, have a range of powerful damaging spells. They most certainly do not do single digits. Final Fantasy as a series has almost always promoted healers dealing damage when recovery isn't required.

That original statement is actually quite accurate. White Mages typically only have very few "offensive" spells, and they're sometimes only effective against undead.

FF1 - They have "Harm" spells that only affect undead enemies, and then all of *one* non-undead specific spell (Holy), which is at the highest tier meaning it's learned very late in the game and you have very limited uses of it. Try having your White Mage use anything else for DPS (e.g. physical attacks), and it's pitiful.

FF2 - Holy and Ultima are the only offensive spells, with Holy being the most expensive white magic spell (and 2nd most expensive spell overall) and Ultima learned from a special book, again both well into the game.

FF3 - Finally we get *one* damaging spell that has upgrades over time (the Aero series), and the usual top-tier, late-game "Holy" spell. In other words, for almost the entire game, if your white mage is doing any DPS, they're spamming one spell over and over (sound familiar?).

FF4 - We're back to losing even that Aero-line. The *only* offensive spell for White Mages is Holy, and as usual, it's the last spell White Mages learn (at a high level late in the game) and costs a lot of MP.

FF5 - Same as FF4. Holy is the *only* offensive spell for the White Mage job.

FF6 - This game used a different system entirely, where you could give any character any combination of magic you wanted through Espers, so there wasn't any actual "white mage" class.

FF7 - This game did something similar, but with materia instead of espers.

FF8 - This likewise had the junction system without a clear "white mage" class.

FF9 - Closest return to white mages, with certain characters having "white magic" abilities. Holy is once again the *only* offensive spell.

So, I'm sorry, but the original poster is *completely* correct. White mages in FF1-9 have very little in the way of damaging spells. In most games, they only have *one* offensive spell, period (and it's not learned until late in the game and costs a lot of MP to use). In FF1, they have an added spell line that only works against undead. In FF3, they have one added spell line that works against anyone, meaning you can spam the same single spell. In all of these games, trying to do physical DPS with a white mage is pointless. FF as a series has never promoted white mages DPS'ing. They best they did was effectively abandon classes altogether and let anyone have any combination of spells they wanted, but by that point the concept of "white mage" itself was gone.

[JamsC]

snip.

It may be my reading comprehension, but I am really struggling to understand how your post disagrees with mine. Kisai’s point, as I understand it, was that white mages could do no dps at all other than single digit damage. I haven’t gone away to check the accuracy of your list yet, but what you have compiled here is just more proof that their point is incorrect. I dont know what else to say.

[JonaBradburry]

This thread is so dumb and this "strike" is never going to work.

Most people are not queueing into dungeons as 1 Tank (usually WAR) and 3 DPS, this is because most people are just using Duty Finder/Roulettes to get queues for dungeons. By most people, I'd say like probably 99% of people. The only types of people who are doing these types of runs consistently are folks who are just trying to have fun and do a silly run for shits and giggles or dungeon speedrunners who, yet again, are just trying to enjoy this in a different way that they find enjoyable.

People have been doing this since like Shadowbringers. Usually it is a WAR who is tanking because of Nascent Flash/Bloodwhetting. I do not see a downside to queueing as a healer in a dungeon with a WAR as the tank. They can mostly keep themselves alive with good cooldown usage, which allows you as the healer to spend more time DPSing, which in-turn lets you kill shit faster and finish the dungeon quicker. Personally the quicker I'm out of a dungeon (after the first time I've done it), the happier I am. Being stuck in a dungeon for 20+ minutes is dreadful.

Healers that only want to heal: you can do you I guess, but this game is pretty balanced around everyone doing damage. This is coming from someone who raided during Alexander back in Heavensward. If your healers were not DPSing, you were NOT hitting the DPS check and you were WIPING. But the fact of the matter is that in regular ass dungeons you don't really need to DPS because its so easy. To further this point, since it is so easy, why not try and squeak some DPS out instead of focusing on healing all the time. You'll become a much better player if you practice doing this. More damage, faster kills, faster completion.

Killing shit faster also helps mitigate damage as well. If the mobs are dead, they don't deal damage to you (duh). The faster they die, the less mitigation/healing is need.

Also let's think about EX/Savage/Ultimate. Bloodwhetting and all these healing oGCD mits on tanks are NOT making that content trivial/clearable without healer under normal circumstances. In fact, these mits make it so that the tanks are able to survive just enough ON TOP of the healing needed, and in Ultimates this is even more prevalent where tank busters and things of that matter will just flat out instantly murder tanks in one shot without proper mits/heals. Yes some Ultimates have been cleared without healers (TOP comes to mind as well as probably UCOB). But you have to keep in mind that MOST PEOPLE are not attempting these fights with no healers, and these are challenge runs.

Do healers need more varied gameplay/a more engaging rotation? Yeah, I think so. Are tanks keeping themselves alive during dungeons hurting the healing experience? No, I don't think so. If dungeons are too easy, maybe try something harder.

[FairyDJ]

Once again my genuine hope for DT is anyone who is even 10% competent at healer simply abandons healer and forces these god tanks and DPS who support the god tanks to wait in 30 minute queues to get cure 1 spammers so the entire trinity can burn down around them

The absolute disrespect to the healer role is beyond a joke at this point and if you still support the tank design in modern 14 I hope you suffer with crap queues the entire expansion

I am doing trusts for my healers lol I will clog the queue with my GNB

[Turtledeluxe]

Once again my genuine hope for DT is anyone who is even 10% competent at healer simply abandons healer and forces these god tanks and DPS who support the god tanks to wait in 30 minute queues to get cure 1 spammers so the entire trinity can burn down around them

The absolute disrespect to the healer role is beyond a joke at this point and if you still support the tank design in modern 14 I hope you suffer with crap queues the entire expansion

Absolutely crying at "god tanks and dps who support the god tanks" lmao.

[Striker44]

It may be my reading comprehension, but I am really struggling to understand how your post disagrees with mine. Kisai’s point, as I understand it, was that white mages could do no dps at all other than single digit damage. I haven’t gone away to check the accuracy of your list yet, but what you have compiled here is just more proof that their point is incorrect. I dont know what else to say.

I'm kinda confused how you could be confused lol. Your claim (which I directly quoted) was "healers have a range of powerful damaging spells" and that the FF series "promoted healers dealing damage when healing wasn't required." I showed repeatedly how healers did not have a range of spells, but rather one single damage spell in most games of the series. Furthermore, given that even said single spell typically isn't learned until very late in the game, for most of the game white mages have no damaging spells at all. The cherry on top is how, even once learned, that spell usually cost so much MP that you could only cast it a few times (without even counting how it would interfere with your ability to heal), you weren't going to be casting it much. In every way possible, white mage/healer characters in the FF1-9 games had few options to deal damage and weren't intended to be DPS'ing when they weren't healing. The *only* exception to that seems to be FF3, where they had one single spell you could spam if desired (which I subtly alluded to how healers work in FF14).

What of course is being left out of this is that healers had a whole slew of *support* spells in these games (various defensive spells like protect/shell, dispels for various statuses, haste/slow for allies/enemies, etc.). What healers *were* intended to do when not healing was cast support magic to provide buffs/debuffs. What they were *not* intended to do is deal direct damage.

[IvoryHawk]

Oh don't worry about that, they're be playing Forums (Extreme).

Exactly, a whole load of yappington, they'll forget all about it when they open duty finder and insta queue, only when the MSQ nostalgia wears off, they'll be back to yapping about nonsense on the forums/reddit again.