speak with your wallet if you feel unheard

[caffe_macchiato]

They approach encounters like a puzzle they need to solve

Bingo! And we agree. I support that kind of gameplay because it is simple and timeless. But that was not the criticism indicated in my post. Your job rotation should not be the main challenge. Pulling off gimmick rotations to get a higher number on a third-party tool shouldn't be the objective of FFXIV. And yet this forum is filled with threads griping (hopefully ironically) about the loss of non-standard rotations in BLM, SMN, MNK, and so on. Thus, this is a strawman.

Also, if "pressing buttons in order isn't gameplay", I guess a lot of rhythm games like Muse Dash or FnF and fighters like DBFZ aren't games then lol

Rhythm games have a much faster pace than FFXIV rotations because pushing buttons is the main challenge. They are not comparable.

Fighting games have spontaneity that does not exist in FFXIV rotations.

[Galvuu]

But that was not the criticism indicated in my post. Your job rotation should not be the main challenge. Pulling off gimmick rotations to get a higher number on a third-party tool shouldn't be the objective of FFXIV.

This is like, you know, your opinion. And there is no strawman- you simply make sweeping statements based on your subjective experience as fact while also blatantly deriding people who enjoy a different aspect of the game.
I'm stating that your assumptions regarding what people enjoy (and why) do not necessarily correspond to the truth (in fact, they probably don't).
You're stating right here that people only enjoy certain aspects of gameplay because of a parse. But this is unlikely to be true (and, as far as I'm concerned, it's not true at all, I just enjoy more reactive gameplay in general).

As for the latter comment, of course those genres have fundamental differences from XIV. But even in XIV, your rotation most definitely is gameplay. Your hyperbolic comment and apparent dismissal of it doesn't even make sense- do you think the game would be better if there were no rotation? Because apparently the rotation "isn't gameplay". Is the game better- or enjoyable to the same degree- if your rotation consistent of the same button press once a minute? Perhaps once every 3s? Evidently these scenarios are all different and require a different type of mechanical engagement from players. We can go down that line of thought to the other extreme of high apm, complicated and reactive rotations (which other mmos do better), or more reflex-based ones (like in GW).

In general, you project an image about a subset of the playerbase that finds enjoyment in a different type of gameplay experience within the confines of XIV that you do. I don't enjoy SMN because I feel it's incredibly dull, but there's nothing wrong with people that prefer a lower load on their job's kit. It'd be silly and downright impolite of me to insult them over this preference. And this game, with 20 jobs, has enough design space to accommodate all of these breadths of playstyles if the team puts in some effort and is so inclined. I'm not sure why you feel the need to make wild assumptions about people who enjoy flexible, more fluid gameplay in their rotations.

(There also might be some unintentional hilarity in your response because the "puzzle" I meant was figuring out how to maximize a job's output for a given fight, and not the figuring out of that fight's mechanics)

[Limecat]

Think of it like Touhou. The fact that you're attacking is just window dressing, a button you hold down for the sake of holding a button down while you play the real game; dodging the pattern and holding a bomb(OGCD) in reserve.

[Galvuu]

Think of it like Touhou. The fact that you're attacking is just window dressing, a button you hold down for the sake of holding a button down while you play the real game; dodging the pattern and holding a bomb(OGCD) in reserve.

I doubt the majority of players want their rotations to be reduced to holding down one button, with another in reserve (or any other extreme simplification of the sort). Rotations don't need to be window dressing and, for a good portion of the game's lifespan, have not been such. This issue started creeping in ShB. Ofc XIV could effectively get rid of rotations altogether, but the combat design in this game is so limited by its technical debt that I doubt this would be sustainable in the medium term.
(And you kinda need to aim in Touhou if you're not playing Reimu A- everyone knows Marisa is the better protag anyway)

[HighlanderClone]

Think of it like Touhou. The fact that you're attacking is just window dressing, a button you hold down for the sake of holding a button down while you play the real game; dodging the pattern and holding a bomb(OGCD) in reserve.

That analogy would work if we were dodging bullet hell instead of hello kitty cookies falling to the ground at 1 inch per hour

[SeverianLyonesse]

I was leaning toward buying Dawntrail, but now I am probably going to pass.

Overall, the expansions are starting to feel too formulaic. Everything that appeals to me is just window dressing slapped onto the same story structure, map zone structure, job design structure. It's very pretty but there's so little gameplay differentiation that I wouldn't be missing out on anything by just watching a playthrough.

I think the core of any MMO are the job fantasies, and that is really where the game is struggling to keep my attention. PCT and VPR seem to be pushing power creep---more spectacle and overgeneralization that poaches from prior job fantasies, yet still far easier and with faster/more flexible gamefeel-- again like we got in EW and to some extent in ShB. This coupled with so many jobs losing their identities over the years and being replaced with...Seraphism...really doesn't make many of the job fantasies feel good anymore. DRK losing plunge and blood weapon, GNB losing rough divide and control over DoTs, DRG losing spine shatter dive, AST losing random card draws, SAM losing Kaiten, WAR getting too much self-sustain, the general consolidation of OGCD skills, the two-minute buff window, etc. etc.

I could see myself, at most, enjoying a single MSQ run on a job that feels 90% aesthetics and practically plays itself. And that's not enough for me to justify buying an entire expansion.

[Moqi]

I took an 8 year break last time I didn't like what the game turned into but that was mostly an endgame grind problem. Now I don't even care about finishing the MSQ because the combat is already so boring and it's gonna get even worse even if I don't buy DT.

Sub runs out in 3 days and I think this time it'll be a permanent break it unless 8.0 completely reworks all jobs (it won't).

[Reimmi]

There's far more to roleplaying that job stats and builds. That might have been a feature of many of the old TTRPGs but it wasn't a feature of all of them and has never been a feature of all CRPGs.

I can remember playing many RPGs over the years where stats never came into play. You were tossed into an adventure and set loose to find your way as is.

If it's a feature that you personally look for when choosing a game to play, I can understand your disappointment. But it is not true to say the game has no roleplaying elements.


I'm a healer main. I am most definitely pressing more than Dia and Glare when I'm in a group instanced duty.

It's one thing to say that a group of highly skilled players have managed to complete content without a healer.

It's another to imply that an average skilled group of players can easily do the same thing. It's simply not happening. They don't have the tools. At best you end up with a good tank soloing bosses while the rest of the party is floor tanking because they lacked a healer.

Do I feel for the highly skilled players who enjoy healing and wish they had better opportunities to display their skill as healers than picking up the floor tanks? Yes. But the job design team doesn't seem to have grasped how to create jobs that work together as a team instead of creating jobs that are more self-reliant. They keep working toward giving jobs self-sufficiency, which isn't even needed in solo content since solo duties provide us with buffs that increased health regen and other benefits, instead of trying to make them interdependent as should be needed for group content. Such self-sufficiency causes the healing role to be greatly devalued when in a group of highly skilled players.

Fortunately for some of us healers, most players aren't that highly skilled. There is a need for us to be actual healers and not just green DPS that throws out an occasional AoE heal to keep the party from bottoming out. I had the fun of healing Tower of Zot the other night with a tank that did not use their defensive cooldowns at all. Seriously. Making sure he stayed alive meant I had little time for green DPS.

That still doesn't help those who are highly skilled, enjoy healing, and play with highly skilled players.

If the game needs players to be intentionally dying for healers to have things to do the game is in a horrible state.

[HighlanderClone]

I was leaning toward buying Dawntrail, but now I am probably going to pass.

Overall, the expansions are starting to feel too formulaic. Everything that appeals to me is just window dressing slapped onto the same story structure, map zone structure, job design structure. It's very pretty but there's so little gameplay differentiation that I wouldn't be missing out on anything by just watching a playthrough.

I think the core of any MMO are the job fantasies, and that is really where the game is struggling to keep my attention. PCT and VPR seem to be pushing power creep---more spectacle and overgeneralization that poaches from prior job fantasies, yet still far easier and with faster/more flexible gamefeel-- again like we got in EW and to some extent in ShB. This coupled with so many jobs losing their identities over the years and being replaced with...Seraphism...really doesn't make many of the job fantasies feel good anymore. DRK losing plunge and blood weapon, GNB losing rough divide and control over DoTs, DRG losing spine shatter dive, AST losing random card draws, SAM losing Kaiten, WAR getting too much self-sustain, the general consolidation of OGCD skills, the two-minute buff window, etc. etc.

I could see myself, at most, enjoying a single MSQ run on a job that feels 90% aesthetics and practically plays itself. And that's not enough for me to justify buying an entire expansion.

You won't be the first, and won't be the last, and you're in good company. FF14's media ecosystem and the discourse environment makes it seem like a lot of players aren't quitting and are forever staying with the game and content. That's flat out not the case when you look at LuckyBancho's stats (there's a LOT of churn). FF14 is formulaic not because they found a good formula to keep players invested. It's because they found a formula to keep new players coming in and play just long enough to be profitable before they churn out like the rest.

I play a few other MMOs, and when I see a former FF14 player they almost never have anything positive to say about FF14 other than saying that FF14's community is wholesome.

[SeverianLyonesse]

You won't be the first, and won't be the last, and you're in good company. FF14's media ecosystem and the discourse environment makes it seem like a lot of players aren't quitting and are forever staying with the game and content. That's flat out not the case when you look at LuckyBancho's stats (there's a LOT of churn). FF14 is formulaic not because they found a good formula to keep players invested. It's because they found a formula to keep new players coming in and play just long enough to be profitable before they churn out like the rest.

I play a few other MMOs, and when I see a former FF14 player they almost never have anything positive to say about FF14 other than saying that FF14's community is wholesome.

I certainly agree with that assessment. FFXIV is primarily a social/nostalgia game with a lot of busywork disguised as "content" (like a lot of games), but ultimately is more about dress-up and "community" than anything else. I do see players comment on the story being great, however in my opinion, only Heavensward (and to some extent, Stormblood) have truly good, focused story-writing that was derailed and subsequently rushed by the Shadowbringers isekai. I actually think the story would have been stronger had they relegated the First to the trial/raid patch story, and instead made Werlyt, Bozja, and Garlemald the main 6.0 story arc. The worldbuilding on the First proved to be too shallow and unrelated to the Source to really justify such a detour, and it really hurt Endwalker's pacing to try to fit two expansions' worth of story into one.

At any rate, I only posted to add my small individual disappointment to the pile; I do hope they take notice at some point. I am so thoroughly not interested in the direction they continue to take job design and combat. At this point, I wouldn't care if we got no new jobs if it afforded an entire overhaul and revitalization of every job, as well as the removal of party-wide damage buffs and the two-minute meta. And I don't see myself returning if they don't do that, because job identity is so crippled in this game.