Did tanks really need more healing

[Rithy255]

I mean bad tanks exist too but you don't see DPS and Healers getting insane mitigation to compensate against an awful tank dying. IDK why healers are ruled out as being okay to remove from play, at that point just make everyone a DPS that can Tank and Heal.

Healers can literally do dungeons with 3 DPS with wall to wall. a tank who doesn't mitigate would still be able to get through a dungeon, just like a healer who doesn't heal. Having both a healer and a tank is pointless because both have so many strong CD's that it becomes pointless to have both.

The issue is more then "tank removes healer from play".

[Ramiee]

Healers can literally do dungeons with 3 DPS with wall to wall. a tank who doesn't mitigate would still be able to get through a dungeon, just like a healer who doesn't heal. Having both a healer and a tank is pointless because both have so many strong CD's that it becomes pointless to have both.

The issue is more then "tank removes healer from play".

The main difference is that a tank deals more damage than a healer so the tank will always be chosen over a healer. Really all roles should be present and have dungeons impossible without one of the roles present especially at level 90-100.
I mean realistically if removing a healer and just adding a red mage and a warrior would cover the healing why wouldn't you do that? You get the monotonous roulettes done quicker. I think tanks removing healer from play is a massive problem why does a tank get to do a healers job as viable as a healer and with enough skill on the same level?
Everyone who plays MMOs will cheat the grind if they can because optimisation is a core part of the MMO community now and if you're even slightly midcore you would learn to get good enough to remove healer so you save time.

[Rithy255]

The main difference is that a tank deals more damage than a healer so the tank will always be chosen over a healer. Really all roles should be present and have dungeons impossible without one of the roles present especially at level 90-100.
I mean realistically if removing a healer and just adding a red mage and a warrior would cover the healing why wouldn't you do that? You get the monotonous roulettes done quicker. I think tanks removing healer from play is a massive problem why does a tank get to do a healers job as viable as a healer and with enough skill on the same level?
Everyone who plays MMOs will cheat the grind if they can because optimisation is a core part of the MMO community now and if you're even slightly midcore you would learn to get good enough to remove healer so you save time.

Tanks do slightly more damage that is true, I think we could argue that if we gave healers more complex rotations you could up healer damage to tank level (personally i would want more engaging tank rotations also but this is wishful thinking). I think both doing around 70% of a DPS damage is healthy.

I disagree with the notion that we'd have to bring a healer to a dungeon but the idea is that it should be Optimal to bring one over a silly meme run where you have a red mage or paladin spam gcd heals, I think wall to walls should be near on impossible without a healer, I also think tanks should be able to "solo bosses" but they shouldn't be able to do it effortlessly, right now they can eat like 4 vuns (esp warrior) and still solo bosses which is ridiculous

Tanks do not remove healers from play, people have cleared things with 4 dps, these dungeons remove healer's from play if anything, I get theirs examples of tanks like Warrior having so much sustain even if you made dungeons hit harder you'd still likely be able to solo, but theirs also cases where tanks have a fair amount of sustain (like Gunbreaker), where if fights like dungeons actually hit decently well and dps would take more damage also in boss fights then a healer would actually be more needed.

Warrior is a issue where every defensive ability it has at this point as some sort of sustain/healing cooldown attached to it, where other tanks may have 1 or 2 sustain attached to it (which are still generally weaker then warrior's potencies), it's hard to even compare warriors level of sustain.

[Ramiee]

Tanks do not remove healers from play, people have cleared things with 4 dps, these dungeons remove healer's from play if anything, I get theirs examples of tanks like Warrior having so much sustain even if you made dungeons hit harder you'd still likely be able to solo, but theirs also cases where tanks have a fair amount of sustain (like Gunbreaker), where if fights like dungeons actually hit decently well and dps would take more damage also in boss fights then a healer would actually be more needed.

I mean everytime someone says tanks and dps dont remove healers only the dungeons do, my mind goes to TOP cleared with no healers, previous ultimates being cleared with 1 healer and savage tiers being solo healed too. I think just in general damage output is fucked and too many group heals on non-healers exist. Like yeah the excuse always comes up that those clears are top people in the game but i remember in ARR titan-egi tanking whorleater extreme and that getting patched out a week later yet TOPs damage and the savage damage outputs weren't buffed to stop this from happening. It seems that even the devs are removing healers and don't seem to care and honestly I think this ruins tanking too. Eminity coming back would be cool but a good first step is making me feel the rush of having low health in extremes more often, even make dungeons scarier because in my tanking career (granted I only did p1-4s as a tank so i didn't experience the p7-8s autism) critieon was the only times I felt as a tank I had to actually think about how I would use my mitigations abilities.

[LalafellDown]

Yes I would like to heal myself. They took Heavensward DRK away from us. I would enjoy having more things to do as a tank. I’m sure the devs planned the tank healing because it will require it in Dawn Trail.

[Rithy255]

I mean everytime someone says tanks and dps dont remove healers only the dungeons do, my mind goes to TOP cleared with no healers, previous ultimates being cleared with 1 healer and savage tiers being solo healed too. I think just in general damage output is fucked and too many group heals on non-healers exist. Like yeah the excuse always comes up that those clears are top people in the game but i remember in ARR titan-egi tanking whorleater extreme and that getting patched out a week later yet TOPs damage and the savage damage outputs weren't buffed to stop this from happening. It seems that even the devs are removing healers and don't seem to care and honestly I think this ruins tanking too. Eminity coming back would be cool but a good first step is making me feel the rush of having low health in extremes more often, even make dungeons scarier because in my tanking career (granted I only did p1-4s as a tank so i didn't experience the p7-8s autism) critieon was the only times I felt as a tank I had to actually think about how I would use my mitigations abilities.

Top being cleared with no healers was not optimal it was a challenge run, it would have been way easier with actual healers even if just one, they had to use clemency and vercure to clear it.

I'm not asking for healers to be useless i want them to be optimal in dungeons I also think they should be required for ultimate's (at least one), but that's the thing healing has become so very little important that small abilities like a heal or a shield from one job can overwrite your cooldowns... when it should be that healers are actually actively healing a lot more and those sorts of cooldowns can save healer damage.

Also don't get my wrong, tanking is in a bad state, I personally don't think tanks issues are just "lol tanks have a few healing abilities" it's for me more to do with the absurd amount of inbuilt defensiveness, combined with insane mits and sustain is a sprikle on top for most tanks (not warrior), that tips it further

I think tanking would be fun if you reduced the tank passive and made cycling mits more important rather then "press all defensive buttons here", put more focus on tank supporting party members with mits ect.

I think tank healing is fine as a statement, but ff14 has serval issues that combine into something that on the surface looks like "haha" funny axe tank makes healer not needed, which while true, isn't the main issue theirs tons of small issues combined into one larger issue, Warrior is more of a expectation to that because its a case where i couldn't even argue how its sustain and target healing is healthy.

I just think people have a simple view of things if it's seen as "lets remove tank/dps healing" when things can actually be worked and balanced around those jobs having some forms of healing. Personally I would want sustain reduced, some aoe heals to go but i wouldn't want every source of non healer healing to go, I actually think mitigation is a bigger problem on tanks right now outside of warrior.

[SpiralMask]

Tanks don’t remotely need the sustain they have in EW but hey what the hell, tanks fun is worth deleting the healers

I’m genuinely at the point I hope everyone with even a shred of competence at healing dumps the role and leaves the tanks and DPS with the cure 1 spammers because it’s obvious that’s the only way they are ever going to do anything about the current imbalance of healers

Theyll just see that and decide cure 1 needs to be stronger, obviously.

[Ramiee]

Top being cleared with no healers was not optimal it was a challenge run, it would have been way easier with actual healers even if just one, they had to use clemency and vercure to clear it.

I'm not asking for healers to be useless i want them to be optimal in dungeons I also think they should be required for ultimate's (at least one), but that's the thing healing has become so very little important that small abilities like a heal or a shield from one job can overwrite your cooldowns... when it should be that healers are actually actively healing a lot more and those sorts of cooldowns can save healer damage.

Also don't get my wrong, tanking is in a bad state, I personally don't think tanks issues are just "lol tanks have a few healing abilities" it's for me more to do with the absurd amount of inbuilt defensiveness, combined with insane mits and sustain is a sprikle on top for most tanks (not warrior), that tips it further

I think tanking would be fun if you reduced the tank passive and made cycling mits more important rather then "press all defensive buttons here", put more focus on tank supporting party members with mits ect.

I think tank healing is fine as a statement, but ff14 has serval issues that combine into something that on the surface looks like "haha" funny axe tank makes healer not needed, which while true, isn't the main issue theirs tons of small issues combined into one larger issue, Warrior is more of a expectation to that because its a case where i couldn't even argue how its sustain and target healing is healthy.

I just think people have a simple view of things if it's seen as "lets remove tank/dps healing" when things can actually be worked and balanced around those jobs having some forms of healing. Personally I would want sustain reduced, some aoe heals to go but i wouldn't want every source of non healer healing to go, I actually think mitigation is a bigger problem on tanks right now outside of warrior.

I think pld self heal on magic combo is too high as well. Knocking aurora down to one charge would be best too. Warrior is the most extreme example but id prefer tank having more barriers then self regen. My mentality on non-healer heals is clear, they can exist but must be a damage sacrifice because that's the main thing people care about. If summoners new bahamut heal made you lose a gemstone or give you a damage down for a few gcds it wouldnt be a sacrificeless heal.

I also agree tank healing isn't the sole issue with tanks but it's the one that effects the trinity balance the most. Ideally we would get it out of the way then go on to fixing the boring DPS rotations, boring defense cycling and lack of Aggro. I have healing as a priority fix because it removes a roles main purpose, selfish healing is okay on long CDs but aoe heals on tanks are dumb it should be mitigation.

[Magikazam]

Can't wait for 8.0 when Warrior will get an upgraded tank stance that physically prevent them from any sources of damage if their hp somehow drop below 50%

[Magikazam]

Healers can literally do dungeons with 3 DPS with wall to wall. a tank who doesn't mitigate would still be able to get through a dungeon, just like a healer who doesn't heal. Having both a healer and a tank is pointless because both have so many strong CD's that it becomes pointless to have both.

The issue is more then "tank removes healer from play".

I mean, as much as I agree that Healer healing capacity is very strong and can make a dungeon group near immortal, tank got more dps and also don't have mana bar to care about (Unless DRK to some extend)