The new MCH is still a total joke

[Valence]

Seeing that the Media Tour info has dropped, and as a MCH afficionado, I felt pressed to bring up some feedback about it before release:

- Flamethrower is still the same garbage. Are you kidding me? Why is this skill even kept in the game if you don't intend to make it relevant in any way shape or form, or include it into the actual rotation? This is worthless, especially with the potency increases on the rest of the AoE kit!

- Battery still has no AoE options. What am I supposed to do with my battery in AoE scenari? Sit and overcap on it and pretend it doesn't exist?

- Why does bioblaster have 2 charges? Because you needed to add one to Drill, and since Bioblaster is tied to Drill then... it gets it too? You're aware that this is borderline useless right? Bioblaster is a dot, delaying it or re-using it immediately is useless by definition. And don't tell me that the 5s without any dot running due to the dot being 15s long and not 20s actually justifies this.

- Double Check and Checkmate are exactly identical in effect. Is this a typo, or the real thing? Not gonna lie, I kinda prefer it that way because the old gauss vs ricochet was just weird with one being AoE and not the other, but they are... the same? Isn't that a little lazy?

- Excavator is just Chainsaw 2.0. Literally no difference beyond the AoE shape.

- Full Metal Field is autocrit, meaning that we can't even dedicate reassemble or anything to it, it's literally baked inside! Even if you want to fuck up the rotation, you can't anymore because the job literally plays for you! Welcome to MCH Kaitengate without even losing kaiten. (let's just say reassembling it wouldn't be the answer)

- Edit added after: WF is still only single target while it can do AoE perfectly fine in pvp where it actually needs it less than in pve (still appreciable though, don't get me wrong). Why is what is supposed to be the core of the job not even usable in AoE?

I'm sorry, I have always had a main rule and it has always been not to use that word out of respect for the devs, but this just scream LAZY. There is no substance behind those changes beyond sparkles, and some of them don't even make sense. What are you exactly trying to do with that job? Reading all those tooltips and abilities feels extremely disheartening, even more than usual. All the actual issues we've had since SHB are not even getting addressed. I'm literally crushed by the clear lack of care the job is getting.

[Aravell]

Honestly, as bad as what we got is, we already kind of expected it because of how little MCH got in Endwalker.

It was already pretty clear that their intention was to strip it down, make it flashy and do nothing else with it. As a MCH main from HW, it's sad to see what they've done to the job, but job popularity is the only metric Square cares about, and ShB onwards MCH is undeniably more popular than HW/SB MCH.

[Valence]

I didn't expect anything with the skill upgrades, and chainsaw 2.0 was probably just gonna be that, but I actually didn't expect it to have the exact same effects I guess.

No, what I'm actually angry about is the lack of care about all the inherent problems to the job, namely the elephant in the room called flamethrower which has been a trainwreck since SHB reworked it and they still have no idea what to do with it (just delete it if you can't think of anything!), nonsensical changes like charges on bioblaster, and still no AoE on battery, while making me use battery generators like chainsaw for AoE. Hello SE? Anybody home?

[Ianmaru]

Seeing that the Media Tour info has dropped, and as a MCH afficionado, I felt pressed to bring up some feedback about it before release:

- Flamethrower is still the same garbage. Are you kidding me? Why is this skill even kept in the game if you don't intend to make it relevant in any way shape or form, or include it into the actual rotation? This is worthless, especially with the potency increases on the rest of the AoE kit!

- Battery still has no AoE options. What am I supposed to do with my battery in AoE scenari? Sit and overcap on it and pretend it doesn't exist?

not disagreeing with you but this is a tip for flamethrower and battery gauge on AoE:

flamethrower: its something you use for aoe when you dont have enough heat gauge for hypercharge. using flamethrower on dungeon mob pull is higher potency than spamming scattergun. although idk if its still higher now that scattergun potency is buffed.

battery gauge: for aoe situation like dungeon mob pull, please use it instead of pretending it doesnt exist. even though its single target its still dps gain than not using it at all. so you summon queen during opener burst on the first pack of mobs while targeting the tankiest mob, and by the time you get to the boss your battery gauge should have already filled back to around 100, ready for another 2m burst on the boss.

[CKNovel]

MCH has issues but not everything you list is an issue.

- Flamethrower is still the same garbage.

True but even if the potency was increased it would remain a tick fishing/emote ability.
Flamethrower needs a complete rework.

- Battery still has no AoE options.

Press it in dungeon, you get enough battery every minutes for a full Queen.
I wish Automaton Queen was doing AoE damage, thought, no need to add an automaton that deals AoE damage. Let's not repeat Shoha II.
For now it's better to use it and burst down a single target within the pack rather than overcapping 100 battery. Healer and tank might appreciate it.

Another problem you forgot is the lack of splash damage from Wildfire.

- Why does bioblaster have 2 charges? Because you needed to add one to Drill, and since Bioblaster is tied to Drill then... it gets it too?

Yes, this is mainly for Drill and it's because they're tied together.
Note that if there's 12 targets or more, the potency of the initial hit is as good as Drill, it's a rare case but it happens.

- Double Check and Checkmate are exactly identical in effect. Is this a typo, or the real thing?

Gauss round and Ricochet are already similar, only that Ricochet has 50% splash.
The change is that both gets 30 potency and Gauss round becomes AoE.
They're similar but I don't see the problem, you'll still alternate between them as it is the core gameplay of MCH overheat.

If I had one complaint about it, it that Auto cross bow doesn't refill the uses. This might result in cases where spamming Blazing shot is simply better.

- Excavator is just Chainsaw 2.0. Literally no difference beyond the AoE shape.

I don't exactly see the problem there. Most skills are like that, I don't think what you expect from Excavator to do.
It's more important to take the full context and see how Excavator will impact the battery economy.

- Full Metal Field is autocrit, meaning that we can't even dedicate reassemble or anything to it, it's literally baked inside!

Sorry but this is just bad faith.
FMF is exactly Auto crit DH because they don't want it to be a no brainer candidate for Reassemble.
Excavator is a new candidate and we will see some micro optimization in dungeon, maybe even criterion... There's also cases of multi boss where it's a possible optimization.


I fully agree that MCH is still affected by issues from ShB, mainly the Automaton Queen is too automated, the Flamethrower is an emote and the Wildfire is too automated.
But I don't think any of the changes from DT are bad.

[Valence]

not disagreeing with you but this is a tip for flamethrower and battery gauge on AoE:

flamethrower: its something you use for aoe when you dont have enough heat gauge for hypercharge. using flamethrower on dungeon mob pull is higher potency than spamming scattergun. although idk if its still higher now that scattergun potency is buffed.

It's way more complicated than this, but the short story is that an AoE rotation including flamethrower every minute was barely edging above an AoE rotation not including it because the hypercharge spenders are way higher pps than FT is, which made FT conflict with the whole kit. Still, it was worth using it but only by peanuts. The calculators and math didn't lie (unless programmed badly, but knowing who did it, I doubt it).

In EW scattergun was introduced which has higher potency and generates heat twice faster and therefore introduces way more potency behind the hypercharge spender (since you use it more often), which makes an AoE rotation using FT actually worthless.

In DT nothing will change (we get more AoE potency overall but that's not tied to Heat or FT), and it makes me speechless. It is, in fact, still a worthless ability unless there is something hidden I haven't seen, or if they changed the potencies. After all, we had a 6 potency FT during ShB's media tour, so who knows...

battery gauge: for aoe situation like dungeon mob pull, please use it instead of pretending it doesnt exist. even though its single target its still dps gain than not using it at all. so you summon queen during opener burst on the first pack of mobs while targeting the tankiest mob, and by the time you get to the boss your battery gauge should have already filled back to around 100, ready for another 2m burst on the boss.

I do actually use it when it fills. It's still a single target tool though, which feels bad.

True but even if the potency was increased it would remain a tick fishing/emote ability.
Flamethrower needs a complete rework.

I'd like to see it reworked obviously, but this won't happen for DT, or it's unlikely. A potency increase of enough magnitude would warrant to use it for AoE, even if it's not super interesting mechanically, it would become useful and part of AoE rotations.

Press it in dungeon, you get enough battery every minutes for a full Queen.
I wish Automaton Queen was doing AoE damage, thought, no need to add an automaton that deals AoE damage. Let's not repeat Shoha II.
For now it's better to use it and burst down a single target within the pack rather than overcapping 100 battery. Healer and tank might appreciate it.

As said above I'm not stupid, I use it when it fills. It's still dumb as a design though. I am also not asking for bishop or whatever, although it would not even be comparable to shoha for the simple reason that it would be different enough in positioning and mechanically, but I'm not asking for that. I'm just asking to add an AoE to crown collider and pile bunker, for instance. Is that too much to ask? Is that too hard to do?

Another problem you forgot is the lack of splash damage from Wildfire.

Thanks, I actually forgot about that. I'll add it on the OP.

Yes, this is mainly for Drill and it's because they're tied together.
Note that if there's 12 targets or more, the potency of the initial hit is as good as Drill, it's a rare case but it happens.

I don't understand your point. Are you trying to defend that choice, or not? You're not exactly replying to the point I made about it?

Gauss round and Ricochet are already similar, only that Ricochet has 50% splash.
The change is that both gets 30 potency and Gauss round becomes AoE.
They're similar but I don't see the problem, you'll still alternate between them as it is the core gameplay of MCH overheat.

If I had one complaint about it, it that Auto cross bow doesn't refill the uses. This might result in cases where spamming Blazing shot is simply better.

Again, I don't understand your angle. Are you defending the state of it? If so, then yes, I do believe it's lazy as heck as a design to have two skills that do the exact same thing. And as I said, what we have had now since SHB is certainly not better. It's just weird.

I'd also like to see ACB regen charges, as I have said since ShB released, even though it made little sense on gauss, it made sense on ricochet.

I don't exactly see the problem there. Most skills are like that, I don't think what you expect from Excavator to do.
It's more important to take the full context and see how Excavator will impact the battery economy.

Because again, it's lazy, it's not even trying to be different, but still went all the way to create an actually different visual. Why going to such lengths if the battle designers behind are just like "meh, we'll just copy past chainsaw anyway"?

Sorry but this is just bad faith.
FMF is exactly Auto crit DH because they don't want it to be a no brainer candidate for Reassemble.
Excavator is a new candidate and we will see some micro optimization in dungeon, maybe even criterion... There's also cases of multi boss where it's a possible optimization.


I fully agree that MCH is still affected by issues from ShB, mainly the Automaton Queen is too automated, the Flamethrower is an emote and the Wildfire is too automated.
But I don't think any of the changes from DT are bad.

I understand why it is. It still doesnt make my point untrue though. The job plays itself with this, but you're right, a lot of other jobs are getting the same treatment with "press a raid buff, you get a brainless free nuke to use".

[Kazamaiya]

But this just screams LAZY. There is no substance behind those changes beyond sparkles. What are you exactly trying to do with that job?

I'm not a Machinist main by any means but i'm a Bard main and you're not the only one that shares some of those sentiments.
Physical Ranged as a role needs help due to just being underwhelming compared to the other roles and it has just felt like they don't really know what to do with the role. Second Expansion in a row where one of the most noteworthy changes are upgrading our Defensive ability.
Sure that's nice and all, but it doesn't fix anything. These jobs have barely changed and many of the issues people have with them have been left unadressed.
It's just disappointing

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

I don't think everything listed is an issue, but Flamethrower remaining completely unchanged is wild, there's no way they haven't gotten assloads of feedback for that skill, so how it hasn't been touched is crazy. I'm also surprised Wildfire isn't AoE like it is in PvP, this should be a no brainer.

As for the rest, I don't see the issue, every job got skill upgrades, for MCH, it was heat blast, ricochet and gauss round, the animations are much better, but you'll use them the same way, except now the gauss component will be usable in AoE. The 2 charges for Drill/Bio Blaster are clearly meant to benefit Drill more, but having 2 charges of Bio Blaster is fine, no downsides. Chain Saw getting a combo action is also fine, nothing wrong here. Full Metal Field being autocrit is nice because its not just the automatic choice for Reassemble. No AoE for battery is alright, mainly because its clear they just want it used for single target, so in dungeons, you build it on the way to the boss and then use it as you pull, I think it works fine in that regard. Having an AoE option would be nice, but I don't think its a necessity.

I wouldn't call it a joke, there's clearly work going in and most of these additions will make the job feel better to play, but I'm still shocked Flamethrower and Wildfire are effectively untouched, those would be the first things I'd touch up myself.

[CKNovel]

Drill
I don't understand your point. Are you trying to defend that choice, or not? You're not exactly replying to the point I made about it?

Gauss round & Ricochet upgrade
Again, I don't understand your angle. Are you defending the state of it? If so, then yes, I do believe it's lazy as heck as a design to have two skills that do the exact same thing. And as I said, what we have had now since SHB is certainly not better. It's just weird.

I'd also like to see ACB regen charges, as I have said since ShB released, even though it made little sense on gauss, it made sense on ricochet.

Drill and Bioblaster charges
The point was to add a charge for Drill, Bio Blaster is a bonus. It's simply something system related, they can't put a charge on Drill but not bio blaster.
This isn't defending it, it's just a free bonus that comes with Drill's extra charge.

I don't think there's a basis for complaint here, that's my point.
It's like complaining about a free slice of ham you get from a 12+3 when you only wanted 12. It's free just take it.

Gauss round & Ricochet
Again, not defending it, I simply don't see a basis for complaint.
They were oGCDs that deals damage and are going to be oGCDs that deal damage. Regardless of the splash or potency value, we don't exactly care.
It's going to function the same way as before, I don't see why we should care about the potency or splash damage being the same.

Excavator
I still don't see the point, Gnashing fang combo is a 3 hit spamming the same button about swinging a sword that explodes. Confiteor combo is just magic sword flying around, BRD has been shooting arrows in different ways, DNC throwings discs in different way...
To call it a copy paste of Chain saw is simply bad faith. Because they're two spiny projectile, it doesn't makes them a copy paste.

[Valence]

You're telling me you don't care because it doesn't affect the job, which is fair enough. I'm telling you I care because it feels sloppy on the design side. It could have been so much more.

If you're using Gnashing or Confiteor as an example of why it's good, then you're definitely gonna convince me even less. And those examples have the basic decency to have at least some manner of difference between their steps. And if you're thinking about Fell cleave, delirium, and the likes, then yeah, definitely not gonna convince me of your point here.

Edit: Fine either way, let's just forget about the bullet points that are more about blandness or weird designs, and focus on what's actually still broken or have been requested for ages, mainly FT, AoE battery and AoE WF.