Sage: Media Tour Feedback

[ty_taurus]

Toxikon was already an embarrassment of game design before. Now it’s just insulting.

[Zaytex]

Ironically Sage got the best changes going into Dawntrail. A new DPS button every minute, which is something people were asking for the 2 minute cooldowns to be changed too... and a second DOT to manage which is a slight DPS gain on a single target (40x10 = 400 vs 360 dosis). Not an incredible amount of potency of course, but gives room for optimization and something to manage. Philosophia is fine, definitely not as strong as Seraphism, or even interesting since it's just AOE Kardia + heal buff, and returns you back to dosis mashing quicker... but hey, 2 new DPS buttons? That's amazing for SE standards (rofl).

Toxikon was already an embarrassment of game design before. Now it’s just insulting.

All they need to do is increase the potency. Make it DPS neutral or a gain, to reward the SGE for actually shielding it's party.

[Kissune]

Yes sage mains like to do things other 1-1-1 you know, like what's been heavily criticized for years... Also opportunity cost my a**, toxikon requires stacks, and pneuma is a gcd. It's ruin 2 which is the odd one instead.

Please look up what opportunity cost means. Toxicon and pneuma do not have opportunity cost in EW, as you are not losing anything (ie, you are not losing the value of a dosis) by using them.

Do I smell sage main jealousy?

No, not really. My main is dead for other reasons, if anything I'm happy for Sage getting an actually well-designed kit for once. Opportunity cost is good, forcing you to weigh sacrifices vs value generated, which encourages you to think about where things go and if you can get by on things without cost alone. Pneuma should not be dps neutral, as it's a healing tool. If it's not neutral, there's a cost for using it. Toxicon is a movement tool, not a dps tool. It's the same as ruin 2, or even something like reprise, which I think is a completely fine ability. Toxicon should always have been a way to ease the pain of moving, by turning no dps into some dps. Instead, Sage gets to maintain full dps uptime even during most movement mechs... kinda just for fun.

I like these changes to Sage. I hope it remains in this state, and I hope the job is very popular bc it'll teach Square Enix that we do actually like older healing design instead of this overly streamlined blob without substance.

[GrimGale]

Please look up what opportunity cost means.

WHM had the same issue with Afflatus Misery when it was 900 potency.

It may not be a super big difference but this misses the point of a job mechanic that is meant to be damage neutral. Even though it never was.

Now, interacting with job mechanics is a even a bigger dps loss in single target.

I guess unless you absolutely need to move around, Toxikon is kinda pointless.

[Kissune]

WHM had the same issue with Afflatus Misery when it was 900 potency.

It may not be a super big difference but this misses the point of a job mechanic that is meant to be damage neutral. Even though it never was.

Now, interacting with job mechanics is a even a bigger dps loss in single target.

I guess unless you absolutely need to move around, Toxikon is kinda pointless.

The reason misery was an issue was that the opportunity cost was high enough that white mages would never heal using a mechanic core to them.

You're right, that's what Toxicon is supposed to be for. It's Sage's ruin 2 (on a class with, frankly, way too many instants as it is). Toxicon is your way to mitigate having to move, not remove the downside entirely. Pneuma is one of the strongest burst heals in the game, now you have to actually weigh the pros and cons of it instead of there being only pros. It's good design to have friction in the kit like this, and I think Sage mains who just picked up the role in EW are too used to having the easiest ride of all the healers, and I'm glad to see it change.

Ironically Sage got the best changes going into Dawntrail. A new DPS button every minute, which is something people were asking for the 2 minute cooldowns to be changed too... and a second DOT to manage which is a slight DPS gain on a single target (40x10 = 400 vs 360 dosis). Not an incredible amount of potency of course, but gives room for optimization and something to manage. Philosophia is fine, definitely not as strong as Seraphism, or even interesting since it's just AOE Kardia + heal buff, and returns you back to dosis mashing quicker... but hey, 2 new DPS buttons? That's amazing for SE standards (rofl).



All they need to do is increase the potency. Make it DPS neutral or a gain, to reward the SGE for actually shielding it's party.

The reward for shielding your party is, ideally, your party not dying. Toxicon never should have been a way to cut the losses of movement. It should have been a consolation prize for doing your job that could be used during movement mechs. Also philosophia is way stronger than Seraphism, bc you can use it literally whenever. It's basically a second physis that can't be used in downtime (downtime situations are, by necessity, rarer than uptime) with your emergency burst heals being placed elsewhere. Like pneuma.

[Zaytex]

The reason misery was an issue was that the opportunity cost was high enough that white mages would never heal using a mechanic core to them.

You're right, that's what Toxicon is supposed to be for. It's Sage's ruin 2 (on a class with, frankly, way too many instants as it is). Toxicon is your way to mitigate having to move, not remove the downside entirely. Pneuma is one of the strongest burst heals in the game, now you have to actually weigh the pros and cons of it instead of there being only pros. It's good design to have friction in the kit like this, and I think Sage mains who just picked up the role in EW are too used to having the easiest ride of all the healers, and I'm glad to see it change.



The reward for shielding your party is, ideally, your party not dying. Toxicon never should have been a way to cut the losses of movement. It should have been a consolation prize for doing your job that could be used during movement mechs. Also philosophia is way stronger than Seraphism, bc you can use it literally whenever. It's basically a second physis that can't be used in downtime (downtime situations are, by necessity, rarer than uptime) with your emergency burst heals being placed elsewhere. Like pneuma.

I think having stuff like Pneuma be a DPS gain would be better than a DPS loss. At least then you have decision making to consider and factor in if you're able to sacrifice that healing button for additional DPS, like Miasma 2 with its heavy MP tax back in SB. Could you risk not having the MP for additional shields for better DPS? Having it DPS neutral means it'll just sit on your hot bar until it has a use case, and having it be a DPS loss means it'll be the last thing you use, no different than a medica 2 type of deal.

Philosophia is better for situations where you can HoT heal your party, but in cases of needing instant and recovery healing Seraphism is definitely better, it'll have use cases in prog (when you need instant heals) and in reclears (when you want insta shields on SCH for movement, etc).

With AST being simplified to boredom, having MP issues on the horizon, and SGE/SCH getting such powerful regen healing whilst keeping their powerful mitigations (which AST/WHM have to burn a cooldown to get too) I'm already predicting we're going to enter another SGE/SCH meta lol - Why bring WHM/AST when the shielders have better mits, and powerful regens?

[GrimGale]

The reward for shielding your party is, ideally, your party not dying. Toxicon never should have been a way to cut the losses of movement. It should have been a consolation prize for doing your job that could be used during movement mechs. Also philosophia is way stronger than Seraphism, bc you can use it literally whenever. It's basically a second physis that can't be used in downtime (downtime situations are, by necessity, rarer than uptime) with your emergency burst heals being placed elsewhere. Like pneuma.

Unfortunately, as long as you can solve "your party not dying" with tools that have no opportunity cost, this whole point and system is moot

Any mechanics that depend on "opportunity" costs will be thrown to the side in favor of tools that have none. And SGE and healers in general have plenty.

[Kissune]

I think having stuff like Pneuma be a DPS gain would be better than a DPS loss. At least then you have decision making to consider and factor in if you're able to sacrifice that healing button for additional DPS, like Miasma 2 with its heavy MP tax back in SB. Could you risk not having the MP for additional shields for better DPS? Having it DPS neutral means it'll just sit on your hot bar until it has a use case, and having it be a DPS loss means it'll be the last thing you use, no different than a medica 2 type of deal.

Philosophia is better for situations where you can HoT heal your party, but in cases of needing instant and recovery healing Seraphism is definitely better, it'll have use cases in prog (when you need instant heals) and in reclears (when you want insta shields on SCH for movement, etc).

With AST being simplified to boredom, having MP issues on the horizon, and SGE/SCH getting such powerful regen healing whilst keeping their powerful mitigations (which AST/WHM have to burn a cooldown to get too) I'm already predicting we're going to enter another SGE/SCH meta lol - Why bring WHM/AST when the shielders have better mits, and powerful regens?

I disagree that having it be a gain is better. Look at how assize is treated. You throw it out on CD and ignore it. It was bad enough having sages do the eukrasia+pneuma opener in my PFs and forcing me to pick up their slack so they could *maybe* squeeze out one more dosis. The thing is a 900 potency aoe heal is just... too strong to ignore. I have the same feelings towards macrocosmos. If they have a use case where using pneuma would entirely simplify it, but not using it is possible but difficult, then the trade becomes worth thinking about. If it's a gain you'll use it on cooldown, if its neutral itll just sit until its needed, and if it's a loss you need to think about it.

Instant and recovery healing is basically entirely covered by pneuma anyways. I reiterate, 900 potency burst heal with Zoe. Seraphism isnt for the situations where you would use pneuma, it's for the situations where you need to spam cure 3. The last time I remember doing that was TEA.

Also you would not use instant shields on scholar for movement. You'd use ruin 2. The only place Seraphism would be absolutely cracked for is wroth of flames, which was... basically a mechanic solved entirely by using spreadlo and some mits. Source: I cleared it with a scholar. All I did was throw some neutral sect shields on the stack, I dont think we even dropped to seeing health.

[Kissune]

Unfortunately, as long as you can solve "your party not dying" with tools that have no opportunity cost, this whole point and system is moot

Any mechanics that depend on "opportunity" costs will be thrown to the side in favor of tools that have none. And SGE and healers in general have plenty.

Correct, so adding *some* means theres situations where they might come into play. SGE doesnt have a burst heal ability nearly as strong as pneuma. Burst healing is infinitely more valuable than regens in current fight design, and unless that changes, pneuma will always be an extremely potent healing tool on Sage's kit. By making it not neutral, it remains potent, but theres still a notable cost to using it and good sage mains will find a way to optimize it out, rewarding skill expression. Which is in very, very short supply in the healer role.

[Zaytex]

I disagree that having it be a gain is better. Look at how assize is treated. You throw it out on CD and ignore it. It was bad enough having sages do the eukrasia+pneuma opener in my PFs and forcing me to pick up their slack so they could *maybe* squeeze out one more dosis. The thing is a 900 potency aoe heal is just... too strong to ignore. I have the same feelings towards macrocosmos. If they have a use case where using pneuma would entirely simplify it, but not using it is possible but difficult, then the trade becomes worth thinking about. If it's a gain you'll use it on cooldown, if its neutral itll just sit until its needed, and if it's a loss you need to think about it.

Instant and recovery healing is basically entirely covered by pneuma anyways. I reiterate, 900 potency burst heal with Zoe. Seraphism isnt for the situations where you would use pneuma, it's for the situations where you need to spam cure 3. The last time I remember doing that was TEA.

Also you would not use instant shields on scholar for movement. You'd use ruin 2. The only place Seraphism would be absolutely cracked for is wroth of flames, which was... basically a mechanic solved entirely by using spreadlo and some mits. Source: I cleared it with a scholar. All I did was throw some neutral sect shields on the stack, I dont think we even dropped to seeing health.

Assize is a 40 second cooldown VS 2/3 minutes, which is why it's pressed on cooldown without much thought for its heal. There's more risk to having Pneuma or Macrocosmos on cooldown if you used them for movement or DPS gain (if Pneuma was changed to be a gain), since they're a lot stronger and are less available.

I believe the only thinking you do with DPS-loss healing is: ''How can I not use this?'' You use absolutely everything and anything else before it which doesn't lose DPS, and then begrudgingly use it when you have too, like Medica 2. Having it be a gain gives more freedom of use and skill expression for healers. Sure, some fights and people will just press it on cooldown, but then they may have to GCD heal at a later time in the fight because they didn't have the cooldown, and be punished for it. Just look at WHM with it's dps-loss misery, they literally never wanted to heal lol.

Activating Seraphism gives a 500p HoT I believe, and there are times (prog in PF mainly) when you need more than just a Pneuma to stabilize the party with a dead co-healer for example. Instant shielding isn't just the only benefit, but also the shields are slightly stronger than regular ones. There's multiple different use cases for it.