/r/ffxivdiscussion: A stricter ilvl sync is the solution to casual content being easy

[Erzaa]

FFXIV isn't a RPG. It is a single player game with mmo elements sprinkled in.

In that case, based on your previous argument, power creep shouldn't be a problem, because it's ok for single player games to allow players to be strong.

This is false. There is no truth to this whatsoever.

Interesting. So in your mind, a seasoned pianist has the same struggles as a student just starting out?

If you want to talk about how a real world concept is translated into a video game, then in order to get better and stronger, you have to push yourself. It doesn't happen by tackling challenges that are too easy for you. Ask any weight lifter if they feel more powerful when they do lifts that are easy for them, or when they go past their previous max lift. Ask any runner if they feel more powerful by run a distance they're used to, or when they go past their previous limit. Your sense of power and progression is false. Sorry.

You did push yourself. You completed that level 50 encounter when you were at level 50 and have now surpassed it, overcame it. Repeating that encounter should now be easy for you. Once you've mastered the basics, they are just that, the basics. Or do you believe repeating a Plié is to a Prima Ballerina anything but a warmup? The current challenge is to master an entire dance routine.

Games are supposed to be fun and challenging.

Says who? For that matter, who's to say what's challenging to one person, isn't easy for the next? Who defines what challenging means?

Otherwise, what are you even doing? What exactly are you being entertained by that you can't get from reading a book, watching a movie, or something else that does not require your engagement.

I'm being entertained. As you said, I can watch a movie, read a book, cook a meal, play a video game, do anything I find entertaining. That's why video games fall under entertainment.

Stop being selfish.

The only one being selfish here is you. You want everyone else to play like you'd like to play. Add to that, you responded rudely to a valid remark, and were factually incorrect in your response.

The entire point of my post is that you responded to an opposing argument providing an objectively wrong statement. XP and gear have always existed in RPGs for the very purpose of providing a player with meaningful progression, as evidence of a mastery of their art. Just as in real life, when you practice and practice something, you improve on it, become better, and the basics become easy, as second nature, and you also eventually upgrade to using better tools. That's the reason for its very existence from the day it was conceived.

You're under the impression that I am just thinking about myself.

You are though. Because you're incapable of considering others' point of view. Like how you completely skipped the part of my argument where I said:

Having said that, I do understand the argument for say a level 50 player not seeing the whole fight, because gear and higher level players make the content too easy to blast through. At level 50, a level 50 encounter should be hard, at level 90, a level 50 encounter should be a joke.

If you believe as a level 90 character, in full gear, you should be struggling in a level 50 encounter as if it's your first time doing it, then I don't know what to tell you, except that's an irrational idea.

The problem for SE arises from the fact they need seasoned players to keep the queues filled, in order for the content to still be available for new players.

When a new player with crappy gear enters a duty, they should ideally see all the mechanics, experience the whole fight, struggle and overcome it.

However, seasoned players who've completed this challenge and have better gear, stats and knowledge of it, blast through the encounter. Why? Because this is a challenge they've already overcome and it should rightfully be easy for them.

How do you balance these two opposite scenarios? On the one hand, you want the new player to experience the whole fight and overcome said challenge, on the other hand, you don't want to eliminate the seasoned player's progress and make them feel like they're still weak and useless and all their accomplishments were for naught.

So far, they've settled on what you might call a middle ground.

The very concept of syncing someone experienced down, removing abilities they've supposedly mastered, and weakening them, goes against the philosophy that one is now past one milestone and ready for the next challenge.

On the other hand, not doing so for the sake of balance, would make things even worse for the new players, as letting seasoned players maintain all their power would mean everything dies in one hit.

Removing the seasoned players entirely would just make the old content impossible to complete.

Is there a better solution? Perhaps, I don't know.

Finally, if you really are so considerate of new players and want them to experience the fight as it was intended on release, make a PF and bring them in and intentionally lower your gear.

If you're intent on using the roulette, how about you intentionally lower your damage, stop hitting the boss for a few seconds at a time, so they experience the whole fight without skips?

[Merrigan]

Games are supposed to be fun and challenging

I agree, but objectively: it's not true.

[LyraShu]

Adding to the pile here, I would be majorly for this. As a newer player in November, I was able to blitz through content as a SMN then SGE and basically play like I was a roided DPS the entire time. Mechanics? Who cares, nothing will kill me and I can pretty much 2 hit things. The "hardest" content in the MSQ was when they had you play as a side character with all of your nice buffs taken away.

AND THEN, once you get max level and feel like you know a thing or two, mechanics and whatnot start to catch up to you. I seriously went the ENTIRE game without casting Esuna once as a SGE. There ARE dungeons that would have made me learn about it before getting to end game dungeons to cause wipes to finally learn about the importance of it, but nope I had wiped all of those out as a solo healer before those mechanics had a chance to populate. Now, I am a casual player that likes to game, so it was completely on ME that I did not know the importance of my ability, but tbh I figured it was a dead ability because it just was never needed.

I guess long and short, I feel like making things a bit more "difficult" so people are actually going through mechanics is fun and good. PLUS, it means they learn before getting to some stupid hard raid that you wipe after an hour of progging due to being a stupid sprout >.> #tooootallynotme

[Ardeth]

On the opposite spectrum, I hate scaling. Especially overscaling. Wow has this problem where you never feel strong as a character and you always feel weak until you're BiS which happens to so very few people it makes people apathetic because no matter what they do they will always be weak.

So for me, I'd rather go the other way. Unfortunately, players will meta the fun out of that, but it would be fun.

[Gemina]

In that case, based on your previous argument, power creep shouldn't be a problem, because it's ok for single player games to allow players to be strong.

You're being obtuse. I've made it clear that the situation we are talking about within FFXIV is grouping. The actual mmo aspect of the game.

Interesting. So in your mind, a seasoned pianist has the same struggles as a student just starting out?

A seasoned pianist doesn't progress or even retain their level of skill by always playing Mary had a Little Lamb. A seasoned pianist can only progress further by surmounting additional challenges such as learning new songs to play, incorporating new techniques and perfecting them, and stilling their nerves for recitals in front of many observers. Several of which will be critiquing everything they have learned.

You did push yourself. You completed that level 50 encounter when you were at level 50 and have now surpassed it, overcame it. Repeating that encounter should now be easy for you. Once you've mastered the basics, they are just that, the basics. Or do you believe repeating a Plié is to a Prima Ballerina anything but a warmup? The current challenge is to master an entire dance routine.

And it is. It is easier for you because now you know the fight. Why should the fight becomes easier by punishing you less for screwing up? Why should the players new to the fight be punished less for screwing up? What exactly is wrong with making the playing field even for all those who are participating?

Says who? For that matter, who's to say what's challenging to one person, isn't easy for the next? Who defines what challenging means?

You're missing the point. The idea is to keep the content with the same intended difficulty when it was released. This isn't about a subjective challenge level based on player skill levels. This is about keeping the set challenge level consistent, and not allowing power creeping to dumb down the content.

I'm being entertained. As you said, I can watch a movie, read a book, cook a meal, play a video game, do anything I find entertaining. That's why video games fall under entertainment.

The only one being selfish here is you. You want everyone else to play like you'd like to play. Add to that, you responded rudely to a valid remark, and were factually incorrect in your response.

"I'm rubber, you're glue" rebuttals are childish. Instead try to understand why I say you're being selfish instead of getting offended by it. This quote start's off with "I'm", "I'm being entertained." What about the other players in your group? In this thread alone it should easy for you to identify which posters are not happy with the same entertainment you're getting. They are not as entertained as you, and I am thinking about others, including you. This is why I am not asking for the content to be more difficult than intended. Only for it to be brought back to that level. This is not unreasonable, or unfair to anyone.

The entire point of my post is that you responded to an opposing argument providing an objectively wrong statement. XP and gear have always existed in RPGs for the very purpose of providing a player with meaningful progression, as evidence of a mastery of their art. Just as in real life, when you practice and practice something, you improve on it, become better, and the basics become easy, as second nature, and you also eventually upgrade to using better tools. That's the reason for its very existence from the day it was conceived.

I'm starting to wonder if you understand what progression is. Progression is a succession. It occurs when you overcome an obstacle/objective or anything in that matter that prevents further development, and in this process, you become more developed or honed. In an RPG, better and stronger gear is to prep you for the next challenge in order to continue your progression. Yes, as a consequence of obtaining more power, that which is behind you has become weaker/easier. What I am saying is that this isn't what should make a player feel more powerful. This is a false sense of power. In order to obtain a true sense of power, you must surpass that which provides resistance. What players are doing now is akin to being an adult and schooling a bunch of nine-year olds at basketball.

You are though. Because you're incapable of considering others' point of view. Like how you completely skipped the part of my argument where I said:

If you believe as a level 90 character, in full gear, you should be struggling in a level 50 encounter as if it's your first time doing it, then I don't know what to tell you, except that's an irrational idea.

Not even one time have I made this suggestion. This is your misunderstanding of what it is I am actually proposing. What this game does is allows a ridiculous advantage to players whose level is synced with the duty they are participating in. You're not level 90 when your synced to lv 50 content. You are level 50, and very likely have an asinine advantage over the players who are there for their first time because of power creep. What I am suggesting is the same treatment they have given to Endsinger in this expansion, except all across the board. Every trial. Every raid. The only content that really works like this now are leveling dungeons, and this isn't a problem for anyone.

The problem for SE arises from the fact they need seasoned players to keep the queues filled, in order for the content to still be available for new players.

When a new player with crappy gear enters a duty, they should ideally see all the mechanics, experience the whole fight, struggle and overcome it.

However, seasoned players who've completed this challenge and have better gear, stats and knowledge of it, blast through the encounter. Why? Because this is a challenge they've already overcome and it should rightfully be easy for them.

Again, their knowledge of the fight already accomplishes this. There is no reason for them to be punished less than the next player for screwing up. If they truly are better than the sprout, then they shouldn't be getting hit by avoidable damage. They should know how to resolve the mechanics. However, they most certainly should receive the same damage from the boss's attacks. This is the last time I am going to repeat this.

How do you balance these two opposite scenarios? On the one hand, you want the new player to experience the whole fight and overcome said challenge, on the other hand, you don't want to eliminate the seasoned player's progress and make them feel like they're still weak and useless and all their accomplishments were for naught.

I've already answered this. Multiple times now. You simply level the playing field. That's it. And the dev team are not obligated to stroke egos.

So far, they've settled on what you might call a middle ground.

The very concept of syncing someone experienced down, removing abilities they've supposedly mastered, and weakening them, goes against the philosophy that one is now past one milestone and ready for the next challenge.

On the other hand, not doing so for the sake of balance, would make things even worse for the new players, as letting seasoned players maintain all their power would mean everything dies in one hit.

Removing the seasoned players entirely would just make the old content impossible to complete.

Is there a better solution? Perhaps, I don't know.

Roulettes do not exist to progress players who have already surmounted those challenges. They exist to fill queues for the game's content, and they incentivize players to run them with rewards such as tomes, XP, gil, quest items, etc. They are there to help other players progress through the game who have yet to meet these challenges. At any given time, you can queue up for content sufficient for your level and ilv in order to flex the power you have obtained to that point, but when you are participating in synced content, there is absolutely no reason why you should have an advantage over those who are there with you. Knowledge is your advantage. Use it to help the other players lacking it.

Finally, if you really are so considerate of new players and want them to experience the fight as it was intended on release, make a PF and bring them in and intentionally lower your gear.

If you're intent on using the roulette, how about you intentionally lower your damage, stop hitting the boss for a few seconds at a time, so they experience the whole fight without skips?

I really, really hope you can come to understand the futility in this suggestion someday.

[TaleraRistain]

Take Weeping City, for example. Forgal and Ozma were notorious for wiping parties. Now they can barely cycle through their mechanics because we utterly destroy them.

How much is dps and how much is knowing mechanics on those two bosses, though? I've seen wipes on both of those recently when I was on a dancer. People died because they didn't know how to survive Mega Death or when to get off the platform for Ozma. Plenty of issues in Dun Scaith as well with new people blown off on the first boss.

[Zadood]

How much is dps and how much is knowing mechanics on those two bosses, though? I've seen wipes on both of those recently when I was on a dancer. People died because they didn't know how to survive Mega Death or when to get off the platform for Ozma. Plenty of issues in Dun Scaith as well with new people blown off on the first boss.

Off topic though, have you noticed?
Alliance Raids that located at Mor Dhona tend to be the Brain-dead one?
Crystal Tower and Mythical of Realms

And Alliance Raid that doesn't located at Mor Dhona tend to be chaotic in nature?

[Local_Custard]

Off topic though, have you noticed?
Alliance Raids that located at Mor Dhona tend to be the Brain-dead one?
Crystal Tower and Mythical of Realms

And Alliance Raid that doesn't located at Mor Dhona tend to be chaotic in nature?

If Crystal tower wasn't steam rolled by the sheer potency of our attacks and ilvl it would be less easy. CT has mechanics but it's unfortunately overshadowed by our damage.
source: I did the first 1 Ct raid at min ilvl no echo and will soon do the other two under the same conditions.

[OgruMogru]

If Crystal tower wasn't steam rolled by the sheer potency of our attacks and ilvl it would be less easy. CT has mechanics but it's unfortunately overshadowed by our damage.
source: I did the first 1 Ct raid at min ilvl no echo and will soon do the other two under the same conditions.

The way CTs scale right now is such a waste! How many people have even seen Glasya Labolas's platforms?

[Erzaa]

You're being obtuse. I've made it clear that the situation we are talking about within FFXIV is grouping. The actual mmo aspect of the game.

No, I'm not. You're making arguments in bad faith and moving goalposts to suit you, and I'm using those against you. That's the very opposite of obtuse.

A seasoned pianist doesn't progress or even retain their level of skill by always playing Mary had a Little Lamb...

You clearly understand this, and yet your argument is that all players must repeat "Mary had a Little Lamb" at the same tempo every single time, and that's somehow progress for them.

And it is. It is easier for you because now you know the fight. Why should the fight becomes easier by punishing you less for screwing up? Why should the players new to the fight be punished less for screwing up? What exactly is wrong with making the playing field even for all those who are participating?

And here we come to the crux of the problem. Your argument is that fight knowledge and knowing the mechanics is all that matters. And that's where some players will agree with you and other players will disagree with you. The fact is, if all that mattered was knowing the mechanics, then the gear and XP would be irrelevant, they're unnecessary. Indeed, alot of games go that route, and just expect you to win by knowledge and skill expression. FFXIV isn't one of them. It's fine if you feel it should, and it's just as fine for other players to tell you they disagree with you.

You're missing the point. The idea is to keep the content with the same intended difficulty when it was released. This isn't about a subjective challenge level based on player skill levels. This is about keeping the set challenge level consistent, and not allowing power creeping to dumb down the content.

I didn't miss your point at all. Keeping the intended difficulty for players who're new, and are just learning the fight now, makes sense. The problem arises, when you expect players who've done this fight countless times to not be allowed to speed up; for all their progress, all their abilities gained, all the experience they've gathered, all the better tools at their disposal to not matter.

"I'm rubber, you're glue" rebuttals are childish. Instead try to understand why I say you're being selfish instead of getting offended by it.

Wasn't offended, not sure where you got that interpretation. I'm merely calling you out, you have a tendency to argue in bad faith and be rude to people who disagree with you.

This quote start's off with "I'm", "I'm being entertained." What about the other players in your group? In this thread alone it should easy for you to identify which posters are not happy with the same entertainment you're getting.

Moving the goalposts yet again. No, I answered your question, "What are you doing? Why don't you go read a book or watch a movie?". Simple as that.

They are not as entertained as you, and I am thinking about others, including you. This is why I am not asking for the content to be more difficult than intended. Only for it to be brought back to that level. This is not unreasonable, or unfair to anyone.

It's unfair to those players who want to feel their progress, their additional power, the results of their hard work and accomplishments. And I never claimed you wanted to make the content more difficult than intended, nor did I ever think that.

You want the content to be as difficult as it was at release, with the lowest possible gear, so that mechanics aren't skipped due to power creep. What makes you think I don't understand what we're talking about?

I'm starting to wonder if you understand what progression is.

Yes, I'm fully aware of what it is, because your next paragraph explains it exactly what I said it was.

It occurs when you overcome an obstacle/objective or anything in that matter that prevents further development, and in this process, you become more developed or honed. In an RPG, better and stronger gear is to prep you for the next challenge in order to continue your progression. Yes, as a consequence of obtaining more power, that which is behind you has become weaker/easier.

Thank you. Which is why I corrected you the first time, when you replied to the poster with misinformation. Better and stronger gear, are the tools of your trade. If you're just starting out drawing, all you need is a 50 cent pencil from the store. As you improve (XP), you'll move on to better pencils, paints, brushes etc. (Gear). These tools exist as an extension of your improvement, your mastery, and make the next challenge possible and the previous challenge easier. That's just how things work.

Once you've mastered your craft, you could still pick up that 50 cent pencil and possibly create something wonderful, but you'd be making it just a little harder for yourself, than if you used your best tools (lower your gear to the min ilvl and queue for the fight).

What I am saying is that this isn't what should make a player feel more powerful. This is a false sense of power. In order to obtain a true sense of power, you must surpass that which provides resistance. What players are doing now is akin to being an adult and schooling a bunch of nine-year olds at basketball.

Again, their knowledge of the fight already accomplishes this. There is no reason for them to be punished less than the next player for screwing up. If they truly are better than the sprout, then they shouldn't be getting hit by avoidable damage. They should know how to resolve the mechanics. However, they most certainly should receive the same damage from the boss's attacks. This is the last time I am going to repeat this.

That's your opinion and others disagree with you. Why is it a false sense of power? Because you want everyone to always do mechanics and know the fight and nothing else?

For one, alot of players may know the mechanics and still choose to stand in them, because they know that the sum of their accomplishments now allows them to completely ignore that mechanic and they like it that way.

Second, if FFXIV went entirely designed by your proposal, then what use does the XP gain and gear have in the game then? What's it good for? Petition SE to remove XP and gear entirely from the game, turn all gear into glams, and design every fight based off your base stats, how much damage your abilities do and the increasingly faster and harder dances as we progress through the content and expansions. Then, every fight will always be at its intended difficulty.

And there are games that are designed around that concept. RPGs do not and have never been designed around that concept. Spinning things like FF isn't an RPG, it's this or it's that, to suit your argument, isn't going to change that.

Not even one time have I made this suggestion. This is your misunderstanding of what it is I am actually proposing. What this game does is allows a ridiculous advantage to players whose level is synced with the duty they are participating in. You're not level 90 when your synced to lv 50 content. You are level 50, and very likely have an asinine advantage over the players who are there for their first time because of power creep. What I am suggesting is the same treatment they have given to Endsinger in this expansion, except all across the board. Every trial. Every raid. The only content that really works like this now are leveling dungeons, and this isn't a problem for anyone.

You're level synced down and have your abilities removed, ergo you are intentionally being weakened. This doesn't feel good to alot of players who feel like they're being punished for progressing, and their accomplishments are being diminished. You may not feel that way, but others do, and the additional gear at least allows them to feel that sense of power they feel they should have. If you need to understand why this exists, I refer you back to my previous post around a happy middle ground to keep queues filled. I see no reason to repeat myself.

I've already answered this. Multiple times now. You simply level the playing field. That's it.

They are leveling the playing field. You're being synced down and lose access to most of your abilities. You, specifically you, and perhaps some other players may feel it's not enough, but again, that's an opinion. They've already leveled the playing field.

And the dev team are not obligated to stroke egos

Unless it's to stroke your ego and design the game in a way you want, ignoring what others might want, yes?

Roulettes do not exist to progress players who have already surmounted those challenges. They exist to fill queues for the game's content, and they incentivize players to run them with rewards such as tomes, XP, gil, quest items, etc. They are there to help other players progress through the game who have yet to meet these challenges. At any given time, you can queue up for content sufficient for your level and ilv in order to flex the power you have obtained to that point, but when you are participating in synced content, there is absolutely no reason why you should have an advantage over those who are there with you. Knowledge is your advantage. Use it to help the other players lacking it.

Never once did I make this claim, perhaps you should reread my post, and argue the points I made, not the points you feel I made.

I really, really hope you can come to understand the futility in this suggestion someday.

I already know this suggestion is futile. It's called sarcasm. Because I already know players would rather alter the way the game works and limit others, instead of using the tools they already possess which would allow them to get what they want now.

Case in point, some players enjoy the way the current level sync works, as it allows them to feel powerful, or just quickly run through their roulettes, and others would rather play every duty at its intended difficulty on release. As it stands now, both camps can get what they want, but one camp would like to set limits on the other camp.

And make no mistake, the moment SE theoretically implemented your suggestions, there'd be a whole new round of complaints on the forums from players who feel now roulettes would take too long.

And let me be clear here, because I don't feel you understand my point at all. I've no dog in this fight. Whatever happens, happens. Whichever solution SE might decide to go with, I don't personally care. Stricter ilvl sync, things remain as is, some entirely different solution I can't think of? I don't care. This entire conversation started because you made a fallacious response to a poster who made a valid counterpoint.