/r/ffxivdiscussion: A stricter ilvl sync is the solution to casual content being easy

[Swordsman]

Full title: A stricter ilvl sync is the solution to casual trial/raid content being too easy.

This is an interesting discussion about how to increase the difficulty of casual content that's currently too easy. I'm sure nearly everyone's encountered the issue of their party killing the boss too quickly and newer players not being able to see all the phases and mechanics the boss has to offer. There needs to be something implemented to prevent this from happening.

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Original Post: As you all know, in normal trials/raids/alliance raids/end-game dungeons, things die too quickly and things don't hit hard enough, often result in the most fun mechanic being skipped.

Here's the thing. Normal instances actually deal decent damage at minimum item level, believe it or not, including ARR trials. Obviously, I am not expecting the Duty Finder to default to minimum item level syncing, but,

Here's the solution - make duties have stricter ilvl sync. If it's patch x.0 end-game content, you are only allowed to use x.0 gear without triggering an item level sync. If you are doing x3 level content, then the max you can go without gear being synced would be x6 level gear. If it's patch x.4 content, you are only allowed to use x.4 crafted gear without it being synced. So on and so forth. You get the idea.

But why do I want things to be harder in normal content, where things should be easy?

I enjoy the combat, and current item level sync makes things less enjoyable.
I want people to feel the need to learn the game.
It's a video game, there SHOULD be challenges.
Mechanics are a way for bosses to express their identity, which is an important experience when going through the story, so they shouldn't be skipped (Aglaia final boss)

When I do these trial/raid roulettes, I do not feel the agency and impact I should have as a party member because damage do not hit hard enough.

When I was going through story quests a long time ago, I did not enjoy the Alexander normal trial series because of numerous mechanics being skipped due to ilvl syncing, which kind of takes away the epicness of Alexander, kind of ruining my experience with the story.

Because of this, I decided to do the unthinkable. I PF'ed the entire normal trial series of Omega with minimum item level and no echo. It was one of the most fun normal raid series I ever played. Although not difficult, I felt the need to do mechanics correctly and do decent dps. There were even one or two wipes in O11. The challenge also made me enjoy the story quest more.

TLDR: You want things to hit harder? The solution isn't making things hit harder. That will just force new players to spend time-gated tomes, which sometimes they don't have if they rush the story. Instead, the solution is making item level syncing more strict.

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Notable comments:

"I don't know why they put strict ilevel syncs on amourot/the dead ends/the final day yet nothing else. It's obvious they are aware that not ilevel syncing is a problem, as they went back and added one to the final day."

"And here I am just wanting to use all my abilities when I sync down, even if they're nerfed hard when synced. I agree though, you can certainly tighten up iLv sync to not make it most of it so faceroll, but then again a lot of things have crazy levels of Echo now."

"Nothing is going to make the Endwalker alliance raids remotely difficult, but I agree that its absolutely trivializing other content."

"I think there are definitely places that would help (definitely agree on Aglaia esp), because certain mechanics and moments feel important and fun to see. That was also the logic behind the lv90 trial ilevel sync, and while that wasnt my favourite (because the start of the fight is a drag regardless of ilevel, until the cool bit onwards) I like conceptually the idea of making gear not overpower things as much when they've stopped being current content.
Its also definitely notable how much more duties like Dead Ends and such feel like they hurt and challenge due to this too. In general it feels like a nice idea, and even if I dont think its a one-size-fits-all solution to these issues, it would be nice to see ilevel sync used at least a little bit more often in certain cases."

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Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...ion_to_casual/

Feel free to discuss amongst yourselves or propose your own ideas below. Cheers.

[ThaCa]

I'm all for tighter sync, the constant potency creep has left vast majority of the more casual content in state where you can ignore mechanics completely and destroy all enemies in seconds.

While it wouldn't make all of the content more enjoyable, it would help a lot in mid-high level range. To truely fix the lower level experience, we would need more skills accessible instead of having like 3 buttons for ARR content.

[Jojoya]

I didn't read through all of your comments but I agree with your general statement that a better ilvl sync would make a big difference. The revamp of Castrum Meridianum and Praetorium with their new ilvl syncs should show that, not to mention the ilvl sync belatedly added to The Final Day.

No need to change mechanics. Just make the max ilvl the same as was available during the patch cycle when the content was originally released. Once mechanics were learned, parties were rarely having trouble clearing the content even if there were a few first timers in the party. It wouldn't be any different now.

[Johners]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

[Supersnow845]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

The thing is that 14 already has a decent gear curve it just doesn’t use it

Like let’s take aglaia, when aglaia was current content BIS was 600 and your random DF run of it was probably in the 570-580 range on average

If you had a moderately competent group who were all close to BIS you could skip scales. It wasn’t a given but you could

Now these days the average person entering aglaia is in 650 with a 665 weapon. Now skipping the 2 minute long mechanic before scales is common

The former sync creep is fine to represent the power fantasy of gearing up, the latter is just pointlessly excessive

[Jojoya]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

If you don't want everything to be synced, then don't queue for synced content. Make use of the Duty Finder settings to unsync your party and invite like-minded players to join you.

The experience for new players is pretty bad if the veteran players in the party are almost instantly slaughtering everything because of power creep.

[ACE135]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content. Maybe I'm just accustomed to WoW where the power creep is insane (and that's before modes like MoP Remix) and you can melt bosses in a few minutes while ignoring 90% of the mechanics. I just feel it would be a huge step backwards if the impact of gearing was negated by syncing everything, at that point it wouldn't be worth doing anything more than once or twice (personally I'd save the glamour farming for when the weekly loot restrictions are removed).

Gearing up isn't solely for making content easier but also to get access to higher duties.

[Gemina]

Counter point but the point of gearing in an MMO is to make older content easier otherwise there's no point in the progression curve existing. If you're just going to tightly item level sync everything, just give us stat tables and make all gear slots purely cosmetic. You're meant to skip mechanics and even entire phases with gear, especially in normal mode content.

False. The point of ilv is to incentivize progression because you will be locked out of higher duties until you do. BiS or close to it is to help make the game's difficult content easier to clear. Normal content is already designed in a way to not prevent progression. There is no reason for these encounters to be made easier than their intended difficulty upon release. The echo already exists to assist groups who do have trouble clearing the content.

Enemies becoming weaker because you become stronger is just fine in a single player scenario. This is absolutely not the same case in a multi-player situation. There could be new players who deserve to have the same experience as the players before them, and there simply could be players who need somewhat of a threat level from enemies to find the content engaging and fun to do.

Games are supposed to be fun, and how players find braindead content where the opposition has zero chance of defeating the players fun is beyond me. You're not even playing the game at that point. Might as well replace yourself with a drinking bird and fix yourself something to eat.

[Erzaa]

False. The point of ilv is to incentivize progression because you will be locked out of higher duties until you do. BiS or close to it is to help make the game's difficult content easier to clear. Normal content is already designed in a way to not prevent progression. There is no reason for these encounters to be made easier than their intended difficulty upon release. The echo already exists to assist groups who do have trouble clearing the content.

Enemies becoming weaker because you become stronger is just fine in a single player scenario. This is absolutely not the same case in a multi-player situation. There could be new players who deserve to have the same experience as the players before them, and there simply could be players who need somewhat of a threat level from enemies to find the content engaging and fun to do.

I don't understand what you feel you're arguing here. The poster is correct. The reason leveling and gearing exist is for the player to feel a sense of progression, becoming more powerful. Levels and gear is the RPG equivalent of mastering your art. It's been that way since the days of tabletop RPGs, and I don't see how anyone can claim D&D is a single player game.

If you must become stronger to take on the next challenge, then inevitably the previous challenge must effectively be easier. If the previous challenge you overcame isn't easier now, then the next challenge is effectively moot, you've gained no progression.

This isn't a single player or multiplayer situation, it's how a real world concept is translated into a video game. If every player is supposed to always have the same difficulty at all times, there's absolutely no reason for levels or gear at all. The SE team could effectively balance every single encounter around your base stats and damage of your abilities, change up the encounter mechanics, and just make all gear glam.

Having said that, I do understand the argument for say a level 50 player not seeing the whole fight, because gear and higher level players make the content too easy to blast through. At level 50, a level 50 encounter should be hard, at level 90, a level 50 encounter should be a joke. But how do you balance something in such a way that a new player enjoys the complete fight as it was intended, without making the player who's already completed that challenge feel like they're progression wasn't meaningless?

Games are supposed to be fun, and how players find braindead content where the opposition has zero chance of defeating the players fun is beyond me. You're not even playing the game at that point. Might as well replace yourself with a drinking bird and fix yourself something to eat.

And fun is subjective. I frequently have fun performing "braindead content" as you say, because after a long day of non-braindead stressful work, I want to sit back and relax with my entertainment. Perhaps on a weekend where I have alot more free time, I might feel an inclination for something more challenging.

What can SE do to keep higher level players filling the queues, while also giving lower level players a decent challenge? I don't know.

But as it stands, you do have the tools to experience harder casual content for yourself if that's your wish. Wear crappy gear, find the duty you want to do, set it to MINE on PF and play with people who have the same mindset as you.

[Gemina]

BS, I see non tanks killed by the charges all the time, especially if they are a squishier job (any casters or phys range). I've also seen sprout tanks eat dirt taking all three charges. As far as making lower stuff harder, I strongly suspect it's advocated mainly by those who only do rouls w/ their friends/fc, I solely solo queue and exactly zero desire for dungeons to be harder. Why you ask? Because it's hard enough trying to herd cats as it is, yes you can get vets that make the run "boring" but you can just a easily get an all sprout but you group that makes it a nightmare (crap gear, poor/no use of skills, won't listen). For me that randomness is what I like about roul (even if I grumble about poor play sometimes), never know if it's going to great or terrible lol.

If you have max stats for the duty, the charges will not kill you. Perhaps not all three, but you can definitely eat two of them as a non tank. They don't even put vuln stacks on you. Players killed by the charges have squishy gear.

You're also mistaking the request of difficulty. No one is asking for these duties to be harder. They only want them to be brought back to the level of difficulty they once were at. And an all sprout group is a moot argument. Player skill level should not be the determining factor for where the difficulty is set. This isn't anymore true for an all sprout group as it is a group of vets.

I don't understand what you feel you're arguing here. The poster is correct. The reason leveling and gearing exist is for the player to feel a sense of progression, becoming more powerful. Levels and gear is the RPG equivalent of mastering your art. It's been that way since the days of tabletop RPGs, and I don't see how anyone can claim D&D is a single player game.

FFXIV isn't a RPG. It is a single player game with mmo elements sprinkled in. You do get more powerful as you level up. You get stronger gear and more powerful abilities that make it easier for you to kill stuff, and make it more difficult for stuff to kill you. This is fully intact. Taking on your weekly elite B mark in the current expansion is a testament to that as it gets easier and easier to defeat as you gear up throughout the expansion. However, this quasi sense of power should not come at the expense of challenge and engagement to the other players in your group, or even yoursself.

If you must become stronger to take on the next challenge, then inevitably the previous challenge must effectively be easier. If the previous challenge you overcame isn't easier now, then the next challenge is effectively moot, you've gained no progression.

This is false. There is no truth to this whatsoever.

This isn't a single player or multiplayer situation, it's how a real world concept is translated into a video game. If every player is supposed to always have the same difficulty at all times, there's absolutely no reason for levels or gear at all. The SE team could effectively balance every single encounter around your base stats and damage of your abilities, change up the encounter mechanics, and just make all gear glam.

Again, you get stronger gear to prepare yourself for the next challenge. If you want to talk about how a real world concept is translated into a video game, then in order to get better and stronger, you have to push yourself. It doesn't happen by tackling challenges that are too easy for you. Ask any weight lifter if they feel more powerful when they do lifts that are easy for them, or when they go past their previous max lift. Ask any runner if they feel more powerful by run a distance they're used to, or when they go past their previous limit. Your sense of power and progression is false. Sorry.

And fun is subjective. I frequently have fun performing "braindead content" as you say, because after a long day of non-braindead stressful work, I want to sit back and relax with my entertainment. Perhaps on a weekend where I have alot more free time, I might feel an inclination for something more challenging.

You're correct. It is subjective. But again, if you're not being challenged, then your not even really playing the game. Games are supposed to be fun and challenging. Otherwise, what are you even doing? What exactly are you being entertained by that you can't get from reading a book, watching a movie, or something else that does not require your engagement. No one is saying you can't relax. What people like me are saying is that your leisurely activity should not come at the expense of others. Stop being selfish.

What can SE do to keep higher level players filling the queues, while also giving lower level players a decent challenge? I don't know.

But as it stands, you do have the tools to experience harder casual content for yourself if that's your wish. Wear crappy gear, find the duty you want to do, set it to MINE on PF and play with people who have the same mindset as you.

You're under the impression that I am just thinking about myself. What makes you think that this isn't how I already play the game? I can't even remember the last time I did a roulette. Despite this, if I do decide to hop into trial or raid roulette, it is not unreasonable for the duty to be as difficult as it was intended upon its release.