Updated benchmark

**SchwarzwaelderTorte** · 06-18-2024 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Odstarva

Well, I don't have an art degree. As a practical example, if you gave me two different dishes of food and I said I prefer one over the other, do I need to be able to tell in what exact way I liked it better for it to be true? I might not understand what seasoning you used or how you cooked it - some things you just like innately, and I could try to go out of my way to explain it and do a poor job of it.

Just to reassure you on that front, you don't need to be an expert on the topic to be able to provide helpful feedback. To follow your food analogy, even if you might not be able to tell exactly what the difference is between the two dishes, maybe you would still be able to convey what makes you prefer one over the other (it's sweeter, it's more flavorful, it has a more interesting texture, it's more colorful, etc).
Even if it's not accurate, it's always good input. I'd actually go so far as to say that feedback from people who do not know anything about the inner workings of the work is the most helpful, because it helps the creator of the work see from a completely external point of view what the impression is.

(As an example, I've shared screenshots of 6.58 and the first benchmark to a friend who doesn't play FFXIV but knows about 3D modeling, and I asked him which one he thought was the "newer, improved" version. He wasn't really sure, but picked 6.58 in the end. This says a lot about the lighting problem that was in the first benchmark.)

It might be harder to understand what exactly makes the person feel that way, but that's something for the creator to figure out, by asking more in-depth questions to the person who gave feedback, preferably. (That's also why I phrased my questions the way I did, to try to get the information I'm looking for out of your impression)

So for example, the feedback I'm getting from you is: you had issues with the lighting until now and how shadows could make the face look unflattering, how dark skin is poorly lit, and how some facial features looked too low poly, and you're happy that this has been improved upon with the graphical update. And you're pleasantly surprised about the translucency of Elezen ears.

Yeah! Me too! I'm happy about that! (I think dark skin could still use a little bit more love though, but we'll see once we get to experience different environments)
I have problems with other things though!

Like Iscah is saying, your feedback does not directly contradict the feedback other people have been providing.
You could smoothen the jagged edges without changing the overall line (it's really just a matter of adding more definition, like using more points to draw the same curve, if that makes more sense).

(and again, to make it clear, I'm not trying to argue against you about anything, I'm only using your comment as an opportunity to make a broader point. So this is not directly targeted towards you, there's no hostility or anything, I just want people to realize this is more nuanced than "I hate it/I love it")

**SchwarzwaelderTorte** · 06-18-2024 07:57 PM

And on that note:

I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

So before 7.0 starts, I suggest everyone to take screenshots of your characters in /gpose for future reference.

Here's a small guide that you can use to make comparative screenshots that should be as accurate as possible:

1. Using Duty Explorer, enter the dungeon "The Burn". Teleport to the final room. Do not move!
2. Enter /gpose.
3. In "General Settings" set the Camera Position to 200.
4. In "Character Display Settings" choose "Self only".
5. Turn off "Face Camera".
6. Use the emotes "/attention" and "/straightface" and pause the animation.
7. Zoom on your character and adjust the camera so the face is properly aligned.
8. Turn the camera horizontally to take a screenshot of the front view, side view, and 45 degrees view.

Before taking screenshots, it would be even better if you could temporarily change your hairstyle so it shows the whole face.

Example:

Video guide

(The reason I picked The Burn is because it has the most flattering lighting without needing to adjust too many things)

**Odstarva** · 06-18-2024 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

Snip

Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol

(late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)

**Dazedu** · 06-18-2024 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by Odstarva

Everyone is so excited about the upgrade characters we are getting across the board, just talking to anyone in-game. Everyone I know feels that way, but I visit the forums and it's like I am in a parallel universe!
I'd really hate if they went back on the Elezen changes, I genuinely hope the dev team won't go back on this.

I empathize with folks feeling betrayed with the character changes, I really do, but some of us have been waiting for something like this forever... Don't take it away from us!

I think most people have been waiting for this. Just like now, when they want their characters not to be taken away from them.

**DynnDiablos** · 06-18-2024 10:44 PM

I think much of what I am seeing on here are now personal preferences, not actual issues. Yoshi P has said multiple times not everyone will be happy - so they are giving Fantasia. They NEVER promised a 1 to 1 update. Character aesthetics would change. I find it funny many folks screaming their character looks totally different and lost their essence - they look basically the same.

End of the day, they need to be focusing on actual broken graphical issues on character models - neck seams, arm seams, hair clipping. NOT you being upset lips are shaped differently or eye shapes are more round. While they will continue to make adjustments, I'd expect once 7.0 drops that is what the characters will look like. They can't make tons of aesthetic tweaks after that because then everyone who was happy with their character would need to continue to purchase fantasia over and over. It's time to just be happy with what you have and move on.

**DynnDiablos** · 06-18-2024 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by Iscah

The thing is, all of that could have been addressed without altering the shape of the character models. Those things being addressed are not the things that people are complaining against.

Fixing the lighting does not call for lips and noses and eye shapes to be completely changed.

They offered many warnings that this would happen. And that no one should expect 1 to 1 in design.

**Plushy** · 06-18-2024 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Odstarva

Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol

(late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

They offered many warnings that this would happen. And that no one should expect 1 to 1 in design.

People are going to keep bringing up what he said in the past as an argument even though he's NOW saying there are some small differences clearly.
"Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before. Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance." Sorry I keep posting this but people are just not getting this and just totally ignoring this. Its really strange. (talking about the people that keep bringing up him saying characters will be adjusted little as possible). Not the people saying they just don't like the change.

**Khryseis_Astra** · 06-18-2024 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Iscah

The thing is, all of that could have been addressed without altering the shape of the character models. Those things being addressed are not the things that people are complaining against.

Fixing the lighting does not call for lips and noses and eye shapes to be completely changed.

Agreed… this is the biggest problem, and one that I’m hoping is more of a bug that they will fix, and not someone just taking artistic license to change things. I don’t know enough about modeling or texture maps to say for certain, but surely they shouldn’t be changing actual shapes of the facial features!

Many races just look like they’re chewing their upper lips, especially. It becomes really apparent looking at the screenshots where people have drawn over the shapes. And this will affect how emotes look when used as well.

The updated benchmark was an improvement, and none of my characters are so bad that I would give up playing them, but if I put them into gpose and their emotes give a totally different facial expression, I’ll be sad.

Another thing that is really noticeable is the eye color/shading quality… it actually looked more vibrant in the original benchmark, and now the eyes look rather dull and hazy. Again, hoping that was something that was rushed through for the second benchmark and not something we have to endure on release…

Honestly I get how some people can say, for some of the screenshots posted, “oh there’s barely any difference there!” And on some lucky faces, that may be true. But I’ve seen a lot more where I could immediately see the issues, even without drawings over top. Maybe it’s my artist’s eye, idk.

In the end though, I get why people are upset, and I hope they’re able to get some satisfaction. Of all the games I play, this is the only one where I actually LIKE how my characters look! So for someone to lose that, it’s really upsetting.

**Evermomo** · 06-18-2024 11:28 PM

Just a point-- we have no guarantee that graphical update tweaks and changes will stop at 7.0, even if it will cause disappointment in some users. It's right that SE has no obligation to please everyone, but the reality is that it goes both ways, so I would set expectations accordingly.

If people "get used" to their character's appearance in 7.0, that's just like people having "gotten used" to their characters from 6.58-- ultimately, if the developers decide something can and should be improved, tweaked, or changed, it will be. All you can do in that case is provide feedback.

**Irishfae** · 06-19-2024 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I think much of what I am seeing on here are now personal preferences, not actual issues. Yoshi P has said multiple times not everyone will be happy - so they are giving Fantasia. They NEVER promised a 1 to 1 update. Character aesthetics would change. I find it funny many folks screaming their character looks totally different and lost their essence - they look basically the same.

No, but he did say at the LV FF that the graphical update would be done "while preserving the overall look that you know and love"

And that, is not what happened. They redrew the lines of the models, and that, is an issue for many people, especially since it can't be fixed by a fantasia. Maybe the 'general' look has been preserved, but the feel is gone. And for some of us, that is a huge issue, especially after being told that we wouldn't be losing that.

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