Updated benchmark

**SchwarzwaelderTorte** · 06-18-2024 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by Odstarva

Well, I don't have an art degree. As a practical example, if you gave me two different dishes of food and I said I prefer one over the other, do I need to be able to tell in what exact way I liked it better for it to be true? I might not understand what seasoning you used or how you cooked it - some things you just like innately, and I could try to go out of my way to explain it and do a poor job of it.

Just to reassure you on that front, you don't need to be an expert on the topic to be able to provide helpful feedback. To follow your food analogy, even if you might not be able to tell exactly what the difference is between the two dishes, maybe you would still be able to convey what makes you prefer one over the other (it's sweeter, it's more flavorful, it has a more interesting texture, it's more colorful, etc).
Even if it's not accurate, it's always good input. I'd actually go so far as to say that feedback from people who do not know anything about the inner workings of the work is the most helpful, because it helps the creator of the work see from a completely external point of view what the impression is.

(As an example, I've shared screenshots of 6.58 and the first benchmark to a friend who doesn't play FFXIV but knows about 3D modeling, and I asked him which one he thought was the "newer, improved" version. He wasn't really sure, but picked 6.58 in the end. This says a lot about the lighting problem that was in the first benchmark.)

It might be harder to understand what exactly makes the person feel that way, but that's something for the creator to figure out, by asking more in-depth questions to the person who gave feedback, preferably. (That's also why I phrased my questions the way I did, to try to get the information I'm looking for out of your impression)

So for example, the feedback I'm getting from you is: you had issues with the lighting until now and how shadows could make the face look unflattering, how dark skin is poorly lit, and how some facial features looked too low poly, and you're happy that this has been improved upon with the graphical update. And you're pleasantly surprised about the translucency of Elezen ears.

Yeah! Me too! I'm happy about that! (I think dark skin could still use a little bit more love though, but we'll see once we get to experience different environments)
I have problems with other things though!

Like Iscah is saying, your feedback does not directly contradict the feedback other people have been providing.
You could smoothen the jagged edges without changing the overall line (it's really just a matter of adding more definition, like using more points to draw the same curve, if that makes more sense).

(and again, to make it clear, I'm not trying to argue against you about anything, I'm only using your comment as an opportunity to make a broader point. So this is not directly targeted towards you, there's no hostility or anything, I just want people to realize this is more nuanced than "I hate it/I love it")

**SchwarzwaelderTorte** · 06-18-2024 07:57 PM

And on that note:

I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

So before 7.0 starts, I suggest everyone to take screenshots of your characters in /gpose for future reference.

Here's a small guide that you can use to make comparative screenshots that should be as accurate as possible:

1. Using Duty Explorer, enter the dungeon "The Burn". Teleport to the final room. Do not move!
2. Enter /gpose.
3. In "General Settings" set the Camera Position to 200.
4. In "Character Display Settings" choose "Self only".
5. Turn off "Face Camera".
6. Use the emotes "/attention" and "/straightface" and pause the animation.
7. Zoom on your character and adjust the camera so the face is properly aligned.
8. Turn the camera horizontally to take a screenshot of the front view, side view, and 45 degrees view.

Before taking screenshots, it would be even better if you could temporarily change your hairstyle so it shows the whole face.

Example:

Video guide

(The reason I picked The Burn is because it has the most flattering lighting without needing to adjust too many things)

**Irishfae** · 06-20-2024 03:49 AM

Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

I highly recommend doing this (if you can).

Go to an Inn and use the Unending Journey in there.
Pick your favourite cutscenes and record your character in the hair/outfit you like to get a feel of how the new model will look/feel like in them. (Maybe it won't be as bad as it seems like it is now)
You can also grab some scenes with lots of textures, lighting and characters to get a feel for all the new models.

For some ideas, so far I have: (Expansion/Quest Name/Cutscene number)
SB/Stormblood/4
EW/The Matyr/2
ARR/WP Hard/3
EW/In From the Cold/4 (some fun faces that our character wouldn't normally make)
ShB/Shadowbringers/4
ShB/Shadowbringers/1
EW/Endwalker/5
EW/Endwalker/4 (because I love the smirk)

As a side:
In addition to the Burn (which I love), some other good places are - Sea of Clouds on a clear day, The Dreamkeep in Il Mheg (If you haven't finished and the sky is still blue)

**Astronis** · 06-20-2024 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

And on that note:

I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

I don't see why that would be the case. If there are outstanding bugs in 7.0, you won't need anything from 6.0 to reference them, they would stand on their own, would they not? If something clips or has a hole in it or is overly pixelated or the hair stands very far off the head model etc., you wouldn't need earlier reference photos to point it out.

Though certainly take screenshots if you want to preserve a memory.

**Plushy** · 06-20-2024 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Astronis

I don't see why that would be the case. If there are outstanding bugs in 7.0, you won't need anything from 6.0 to reference them, they would stand on their own, would they not? If something clips or has a hole in it or is overly pixelated or the hair stands very far off the head model etc., you wouldn't need earlier reference photos to point it out.

Though certainly take screenshots if you want to preserve a memory.

Its mostly because they won't be able to go back to point out what changed and use it as a reference.
Unless someone still has the endwalker or shadowbringers benchmarks, this will be the last time we'll see the 2.0-6.58 character models in-game.

**Astronis** · 06-20-2024 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by Plushy

Its mostly because they won't be able to go back to point out what changed and use it as a reference.
Unless someone still has the endwalker or shadowbringers benchmarks, this will be the last time we'll see the 2.0-6.58 character models in-game.

As a remembrance, I understand. To continue giving feedback on small changes, for what reason, expecting the devs to fiddle with the models for months and years? If that brings people joy, I suppose, but it doesn't seem like it would. Bug reports won't need it though, those will stand on their own.

**Loggos** · 06-24-2024 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

And on that note:

I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

So before 7.0 starts, I suggest everyone to take screenshots of your characters in /gpose for future reference.

Here's a small guide that you can use to make comparative screenshots that should be as accurate as possible:

1. Using Duty Explorer, enter the dungeon "The Burn". Teleport to the final room. Do not move!
2. Enter /gpose.
3. In "General Settings" set the Camera Position to 200.
4. In "Character Display Settings" choose "Self only".
5. Turn off "Face Camera".
6. Use the emotes "/attention" and "/straightface" and pause the animation.
7. Zoom on your character and adjust the camera so the face is properly aligned.
8. Turn the camera horizontally to take a screenshot of the front view, side view, and 45 degrees view.

Before taking screenshots, it would be even better if you could temporarily change your hairstyle so it shows the whole face.

Example:

Video guide

(The reason I picked The Burn is because it has the most flattering lighting without needing to adjust too many things)

Thank you so much for this!

I never even thought about using The Burn as a GPose location but it was perfect.

I was able to take lots of screenshots, so at least now I have a good reference library of my chars' old looks, even if the latter never come back in the official game.

**Odstarva** · 06-18-2024 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte

Snip

Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol

(late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)

**Plushy** · 06-18-2024 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Odstarva

Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol

(late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)

Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

They offered many warnings that this would happen. And that no one should expect 1 to 1 in design.

People are going to keep bringing up what he said in the past as an argument even though he's NOW saying there are some small differences clearly.
"Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before. Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance." Sorry I keep posting this but people are just not getting this and just totally ignoring this. Its really strange. (talking about the people that keep bringing up him saying characters will be adjusted little as possible). Not the people saying they just don't like the change.

**Sekhar** · 06-19-2024 02:39 AM

Originally Posted by Plushy

snip

Damn, I see you are still trying to conflate likes on a picture which as I pointed out in the Au Ra thread, can mean anything from "I like the lighting", "I like the new textures", "I like the new eyes" to something like "Everything is perfect". Even though multiple people both in this thread and in the other have pointed out that we have very specific things we dislike and give concrete points to what we like and what we do not and why.

I am wondering whether you even clicked on some of the things you posted. One of those with you posted, the one by bunalien literally just says "the new limbal ring glow is CRAZYYYYY" and you play these 1.5k likes off as if this was some universal praise of all the changes. Seriously that alone should tell everyone that those numbers of yours are completely irrelevant.
As I said in the other thread, not all feedback is equal.

Nobody is saying we want them to remove the new lighting or higher texture resolution, just that they are changing things beyond this which should from the very start have been an option if they were going to touch those
Nobody can tell me that this: https://imgur.com/k0q3iZu (transitioning from DT to Current back to DT)
Is just an effect of changing the lighting etc. these are fundamental changes to the characters 3D model (which has nothing to do with bones or whatever you tried to argue in the other thread, a static image does not care about the bone weight etc.). And these changes invoke completely different feelings in a character.

How about for a change instead of trying to drown out other peoples voices, with data you are deliberately misinterpreting, you give us concrete changes as to what you prefer in the new one which others dislike. Like one concrete example giving a before and after as many people have done here where you point out what you like more in the new one compared to the old. Specifically about things people have complained not just "Oh I like the new feel of the character" that feedback is similar to your "likes".

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