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  1. #1
    Player
    SchwarzwaelderTorte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Posts
    331
    Character
    Schwarzwaelder Torte
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Odstarva View Post
    Well, I don't have an art degree. As a practical example, if you gave me two different dishes of food and I said I prefer one over the other, do I need to be able to tell in what exact way I liked it better for it to be true? I might not understand what seasoning you used or how you cooked it - some things you just like innately, and I could try to go out of my way to explain it and do a poor job of it.
    Just to reassure you on that front, you don't need to be an expert on the topic to be able to provide helpful feedback. To follow your food analogy, even if you might not be able to tell exactly what the difference is between the two dishes, maybe you would still be able to convey what makes you prefer one over the other (it's sweeter, it's more flavorful, it has a more interesting texture, it's more colorful, etc).
    Even if it's not accurate, it's always good input. I'd actually go so far as to say that feedback from people who do not know anything about the inner workings of the work is the most helpful, because it helps the creator of the work see from a completely external point of view what the impression is.

    (As an example, I've shared screenshots of 6.58 and the first benchmark to a friend who doesn't play FFXIV but knows about 3D modeling, and I asked him which one he thought was the "newer, improved" version. He wasn't really sure, but picked 6.58 in the end. This says a lot about the lighting problem that was in the first benchmark.)

    It might be harder to understand what exactly makes the person feel that way, but that's something for the creator to figure out, by asking more in-depth questions to the person who gave feedback, preferably. (That's also why I phrased my questions the way I did, to try to get the information I'm looking for out of your impression)

    So for example, the feedback I'm getting from you is: you had issues with the lighting until now and how shadows could make the face look unflattering, how dark skin is poorly lit, and how some facial features looked too low poly, and you're happy that this has been improved upon with the graphical update. And you're pleasantly surprised about the translucency of Elezen ears.

    Yeah! Me too! I'm happy about that! (I think dark skin could still use a little bit more love though, but we'll see once we get to experience different environments)
    I have problems with other things though!

    Like Iscah is saying, your feedback does not directly contradict the feedback other people have been providing.
    You could smoothen the jagged edges without changing the overall line (it's really just a matter of adding more definition, like using more points to draw the same curve, if that makes more sense).


    (and again, to make it clear, I'm not trying to argue against you about anything, I'm only using your comment as an opportunity to make a broader point. So this is not directly targeted towards you, there's no hostility or anything, I just want people to realize this is more nuanced than "I hate it/I love it")
    (10)

  2. #2
    Player
    SchwarzwaelderTorte's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
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    331
    Character
    Schwarzwaelder Torte
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 100
    And on that note:

    I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

    For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

    So before 7.0 starts, I suggest everyone to take screenshots of your characters in /gpose for future reference.

    Here's a small guide that you can use to make comparative screenshots that should be as accurate as possible:

    1. Using Duty Explorer, enter the dungeon "The Burn". Teleport to the final room. Do not move!
    2. Enter /gpose.
    3. In "General Settings" set the Camera Position to 200.
    4. In "Character Display Settings" choose "Self only".
    5. Turn off "Face Camera".
    6. Use the emotes "/attention" and "/straightface" and pause the animation.
    7. Zoom on your character and adjust the camera so the face is properly aligned.
    8. Turn the camera horizontally to take a screenshot of the front view, side view, and 45 degrees view.

    Before taking screenshots, it would be even better if you could temporarily change your hairstyle so it shows the whole face.

    Example:


    Video guide

    (The reason I picked The Burn is because it has the most flattering lighting without needing to adjust too many things)
    (11)

  3. #3
    Player
    Irishfae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    88
    Character
    Kalandra Scathgealach
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte View Post
    For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).
    I highly recommend doing this (if you can).

    Go to an Inn and use the Unending Journey in there.
    Pick your favourite cutscenes and record your character in the hair/outfit you like to get a feel of how the new model will look/feel like in them. (Maybe it won't be as bad as it seems like it is now)
    You can also grab some scenes with lots of textures, lighting and characters to get a feel for all the new models.

    For some ideas, so far I have: (Expansion/Quest Name/Cutscene number)
    SB/Stormblood/4
    EW/The Matyr/2
    ARR/WP Hard/3
    EW/In From the Cold/4 (some fun faces that our character wouldn't normally make)
    ShB/Shadowbringers/4
    ShB/Shadowbringers/1
    EW/Endwalker/5
    EW/Endwalker/4 (because I love the smirk)

    As a side:
    In addition to the Burn (which I love), some other good places are - Sea of Clouds on a clear day, The Dreamkeep in Il Mheg (If you haven't finished and the sky is still blue)
    (4)

  4. #4
    Player
    Astronis's Avatar
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    Mar 2024
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    283
    Character
    Astronis Smythe
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte View Post
    And on that note:

    I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.
    I don't see why that would be the case. If there are outstanding bugs in 7.0, you won't need anything from 6.0 to reference them, they would stand on their own, would they not? If something clips or has a hole in it or is overly pixelated or the hair stands very far off the head model etc., you wouldn't need earlier reference photos to point it out.

    Though certainly take screenshots if you want to preserve a memory.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Plushy's Avatar
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    Sep 2020
    Posts
    102
    Character
    Karma Astra
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Astronis View Post
    I don't see why that would be the case. If there are outstanding bugs in 7.0, you won't need anything from 6.0 to reference them, they would stand on their own, would they not? If something clips or has a hole in it or is overly pixelated or the hair stands very far off the head model etc., you wouldn't need earlier reference photos to point it out.

    Though certainly take screenshots if you want to preserve a memory.
    Its mostly because they won't be able to go back to point out what changed and use it as a reference.
    Unless someone still has the endwalker or shadowbringers benchmarks, this will be the last time we'll see the 2.0-6.58 character models in-game.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player
    Astronis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2024
    Posts
    283
    Character
    Astronis Smythe
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Plushy View Post
    Its mostly because they won't be able to go back to point out what changed and use it as a reference.
    Unless someone still has the endwalker or shadowbringers benchmarks, this will be the last time we'll see the 2.0-6.58 character models in-game.
    As a remembrance, I understand. To continue giving feedback on small changes, for what reason, expecting the devs to fiddle with the models for months and years? If that brings people joy, I suppose, but it doesn't seem like it would. Bug reports won't need it though, those will stand on their own.
    (1)

  7. #7
    Player
    Loggos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    991
    Character
    Kaeya Alberich
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Pictomancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte View Post
    And on that note:

    I've only realized this now, but it's going to be a lot more difficult to provide accurate feedback and bug reports after the release of 7.0.

    For PC players you can still download the 6.0 benchmark (I used Internet Archive to find the link), but for console players there will be no way to make accurate comparisons (unless you recorded cutscenes before maintenance).

    So before 7.0 starts, I suggest everyone to take screenshots of your characters in /gpose for future reference.

    Here's a small guide that you can use to make comparative screenshots that should be as accurate as possible:

    1. Using Duty Explorer, enter the dungeon "The Burn". Teleport to the final room. Do not move!
    2. Enter /gpose.
    3. In "General Settings" set the Camera Position to 200.
    4. In "Character Display Settings" choose "Self only".
    5. Turn off "Face Camera".
    6. Use the emotes "/attention" and "/straightface" and pause the animation.
    7. Zoom on your character and adjust the camera so the face is properly aligned.
    8. Turn the camera horizontally to take a screenshot of the front view, side view, and 45 degrees view.

    Before taking screenshots, it would be even better if you could temporarily change your hairstyle so it shows the whole face.

    Example:


    Video guide

    (The reason I picked The Burn is because it has the most flattering lighting without needing to adjust too many things)

    Thank you so much for this!

    I never even thought about using The Burn as a GPose location but it was perfect.

    I was able to take lots of screenshots, so at least now I have a good reference library of my chars' old looks, even if the latter never come back in the official game.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Odstarva's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Ilsabard
    Posts
    606
    Character
    Sophia Ladislava
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by SchwarzwaelderTorte View Post
    Snip
    Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
    Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

    I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

    They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

    Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol


    (late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)
    (5)
    "You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you!"

  9. #9
    Player
    Plushy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    102
    Character
    Karma Astra
    World
    Goblin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Odstarva View Post
    Which brings me back to what I said at the end, I really wouldn't mind if they just added the new changes as an optional pick, I just don't want to lose the changes before I even got the chance to play with them!
    Ultimately, if this is a "change vs no change" deal, I'll always pick the former. If there's a third option that keeps everyone happy, then that's where my vote would go instead!

    I'm just worried about the dev team getting this negative feedback, and them interpreting this as "no, the players don't like it when we improve graphical fidelity, never doing it again" and I get that isn't what's being argued, but it wouldn't be the first time a message would be received like that because it'd be practical, less troublesome and less work. Like, the feeling I'm getting from most players here is that they'd rather there was no upgrade whatsoever if it meant the shape of their character's face was the same.

    They'd be able to do that thing where if people ever ask for more again, they'd point back and say "but you hated it, why should we try this again when it clearly failed?"

    Maybe I'm just reading into it wrong, it's not like I'm trying to debate a person's preferences. I came into the thread thinking people were posting pictures of their characters (not unlike the "show your ____" threads) and found that instead this is a complaints thread, so I won't deny that might have disappointed me a bit lol


    (late edit, off-topic, yes I almost exclusively only take pictures in the burn it's not even funny lol)
    I wouldn't worry too much (though you never know).
    The fourms is.....quite the echo chamber. People that are happy rarely have a reason to come here and say "I like the changes" I provided feedback from other sns because of this heavy lean against the update and people here DID NOT like that because they felt that SE might not change anything. (If you look at my posts you can see everybody trying to put words in my mouth and also dismiss everything I shown). I also like the update and I want to play with the new updated characters and lots of people are trying to change things before we even get a chance to/ they even get a chance to see if they'll get use to it.

    I believe SE isn't going to adjust the characters anymore just based on Yoshi-p wording and knowing that there will be some differences which is why he's giving everybody a free fantasia but everybody is still pretty headstrong in not wanting the change. This on top of its honestly the same people complaining....even on the japanese side its kinda the same people because I noticed they posted before for the first benchmark and the JP also had a thread asking to not do the update and the slightly majority finally popped up to defended the graphics update.
    Though most my feedback is for au ra I'll repost them and you can see the massive positive feedback they gotten and why I think SE won't change anything because I do think people like the changes more than they're against them. These have huge amount of likes, more than anything a negitive post have reached (trust me. I looked hard for a negative post and couldn't find one even close to the positive ones).
    https://twitter.com/elimido12/status...45452600279183 5.9k
    https://twitter.com/ppr_choco/status...44015141261431 5.7k Likes
    https://twitter.com/kazula_ggnr/stat...92179143323929 2k Likes
    https://twitter.com/Ms_irene8D/statu...82195567231397 1.8k Likes
    https://twitter.com/monamomm/status/1797591808534565081 726 Likes
    https://twitter.com/FF14_DAM_/status...38494518337772 435 Likes
    https://twitter.com/cheliseul/status...31807631728770 358 Likes
    https://twitter.com/rtn_ff14/status/1797610464484151617 488 Likes
    https://twitter.com/bunnalien/status...57335541936579 1.5k Likes
    https://twitter.com/JWFF14_/status/1797548707254243759 435 Likes
    https://twitter.com/alicia_cresw/sta...27577999130802 432 Likes
    https://twitter.com/yami_xiv/status/1797650861008801970 1k Likes
    https://twitter.com/dawnmoon_ff/stat...90100186190140 724 Likes
    https://twitter.com/Tsubaki422_ff14/...45236200767944 193 Likes
    https://twitter.com/_ria_ff14/status...05862004572461 792 Likes
    https://twitter.com/_ria_ff14/status...41511923495385 696 Likes
    https://twitter.com/zer0wife/status/1797535040194388004 2.3k Likes
    https://twitter.com/franandneo/statu...79029291372923 2.1k
    https://twitter.com/VeleckVT/status/1798126792282460426
    https://twitter.com/animefanrk2k/sta...50884976632028
    https://twitter.com/spicywaifusauce/...32771475591219
    https://twitter.com/Starthysta/statu...01889163305127
    https://twitter.com/Liette96/status/1797705060883055078
    https://twitter.com/Kriket_B/status/1797703885869678656
    https://twitter.com/kaori_rokuyari/s...77169180840055
    https://twitter.com/futurea_ffxiv/st...44574653030709
    https://twitter.com/alexiareyesart/s...40657743528436
    https://twitter.com/kikikajiriri/sta...59788186423430
    https://twitter.com/H87762/status/1798488270948778065
    https://twitter.com/hinahina01071/st...37942657376466
    https://twitter.com/f_o_g_ff14/statu...22414844809287
    https://twitter.com/Utatyan1321/stat...97001741488473
    https://twitter.com/wh5dg/status/1797593183217766872
    https://twitter.com/mamanowa_BnS/sta...66926589448631
    https://twitter.com/CcS_lv/status/1797563376652234989
    https://twitter.com/Rikuri_atau/stat...47906444222717
    https://twitter.com/Luca_chocobo/sta...69104036012322
    https://twitter.com/RipiCat/status/1797998969265721613
    https://twitter.com/Azuriteien/statu...81928818467100
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ew_au_ra_eyes/

    These are from the first benchmark 1.0
    https://twitter.com/Moogiedaisuki/st...71727667077478 1.2k Likes - Elezen

    https://twitter.com/piqffxiv/status/1779525816579416326 1.4 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/NINNYANG_/status...37478270967938 1.8 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/46sun/status/1779433791112757445 4.1k likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/cobacci/status/1779569485223235866 500 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/46sun/status/1779431396723020160 630 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/46sun/status/1779444456779100461 739 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/starrdiver/statu...514143/photo/1 513 likes - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/qalexiaffxiv/sta...26015631266105 - Elezen

    https://twitter.com/MoonfallenFFXIV/...65388953964957 - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/ShufieArt/status...61276063715363 - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/TheSmolls/status...90597394813116 - Male Viera

    https://twitter.com/RedBlackKnight7/...16206212415549 - Au ra

    https://twitter.com/vtalon123/status...75804578947577 - Miqo'te

    https://twitter.com/Yumi__FFXIV/stat...36655374139755 - Viera

    https://twitter.com/MoonCatZara/stat...43553159848175 - Miqo'te

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._to_dawntrail/ - 687 likes - Roe

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...got_concerned/ -632 likes - Lalafell

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...g_your_camera/ - 932 likes - Au ra

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ith_how_their/ - 65 likes - Male Au ra

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._my_duskwight/ - 518 likes - Elezen

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ooking_gooood/ - 213 likes - Male Highlander

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...r_are_hot_now/ - 809 likes - Male Elezen and Male Midlander

    https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ive_than_ever/ - 672 Likes - Miqo'te

    So I think you can rest easy and knowing nothing is going to be vastly reverted. More so since...welll SE shown these new characters for 2 fan fests and there are a lot of people looking forward to them. I doubt they're going to just outright revert years of work for people that still won't be happy even if they changed the characters again. If 1.1 is still having people complain 1.2 won't either and this is even more risky because this will be for the live game so they won't even have another chance to change things. I said it before but they can't adjust characters once the game is now live. 1.1 is what we're getting and people just have to get use to it.

    added some videos too if you want to see some popular ffxiv content creators like it too
    https://youtu.be/rxlXrYkeRc4?t=179 (from the older benchmark)
    https://youtu.be/oWByvmJXBks?t=4018 (Newer benchmark)

    Quote Originally Posted by DynnDiablos View Post
    They offered many warnings that this would happen. And that no one should expect 1 to 1 in design.
    People are going to keep bringing up what he said in the past as an argument even though he's NOW saying there are some small differences clearly.
    "Even so, we imagine the subtle differences in nuance will inevitably cause some characters to look ever so slightly different compared to before. Should that be the case, a phial of Fantasia will be obtainable from a new quest that will be added with the release of Patch 7.0, which will allow you to fine-tune your character's appearance." Sorry I keep posting this but people are just not getting this and just totally ignoring this. Its really strange. (talking about the people that keep bringing up him saying characters will be adjusted little as possible). Not the people saying they just don't like the change.
    (6)
    Last edited by Plushy; 06-18-2024 at 11:23 PM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Sekhar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2024
    Posts
    8
    Character
    Byleth Sekhar
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Plushy View Post
    snip
    Damn, I see you are still trying to conflate likes on a picture which as I pointed out in the Au Ra thread, can mean anything from "I like the lighting", "I like the new textures", "I like the new eyes" to something like "Everything is perfect". Even though multiple people both in this thread and in the other have pointed out that we have very specific things we dislike and give concrete points to what we like and what we do not and why.

    I am wondering whether you even clicked on some of the things you posted. One of those with you posted, the one by bunalien literally just says "the new limbal ring glow is CRAZYYYYY" and you play these 1.5k likes off as if this was some universal praise of all the changes. Seriously that alone should tell everyone that those numbers of yours are completely irrelevant.
    As I said in the other thread, not all feedback is equal.

    Nobody is saying we want them to remove the new lighting or higher texture resolution, just that they are changing things beyond this which should from the very start have been an option if they were going to touch those
    Nobody can tell me that this: https://imgur.com/k0q3iZu (transitioning from DT to Current back to DT)
    Is just an effect of changing the lighting etc. these are fundamental changes to the characters 3D model (which has nothing to do with bones or whatever you tried to argue in the other thread, a static image does not care about the bone weight etc.). And these changes invoke completely different feelings in a character.


    How about for a change instead of trying to drown out other peoples voices, with data you are deliberately misinterpreting, you give us concrete changes as to what you prefer in the new one which others dislike. Like one concrete example giving a before and after as many people have done here where you point out what you like more in the new one compared to the old. Specifically about things people have complained not just "Oh I like the new feel of the character" that feedback is similar to your "likes".
    (23)
    Last edited by Sekhar; 06-19-2024 at 02:45 AM.