Compact skills similar to PvP

[Mikey_R]

Remember when every basic combo in the game used to have branches? All of them had, no exception.

Dragoon originally never had branching combos. Heavy Thrust > Ring of Thorns, cut short in single target scenarios. True Thrust > Vorpal Thrust > Full Thrust and Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust, 2 separate combos with no branches. Infact, Dragoon gained a branching combo when they removed Impulse Drive and made True Thrust combo into Disembowel.

[Azurarok]

Branches can still be condensed into fewer buttons anyways. They're right that old MCH's proc combos couldn't be, though.

I think it says a lot about the current job and fight designs that combos are more considered filler and a nuisance than a core part of a job's rotation though. Everything will eventually fall into the healer square hole with the 2min ddr

[Valence]

Dragoon originally never had branching combos. Heavy Thrust > Ring of Thorns, cut short in single target scenarios. True Thrust > Vorpal Thrust > Full Thrust and Impulse Drive > Disembowel > Chaos Thrust, 2 separate combos with no branches. Infact, Dragoon gained a branching combo when they removed Impulse Drive and made True Thrust combo into Disembowel.

The last step of the sequence under Blood of the Dragon, which true, past Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust, was technically not part of the combo anymore, was random in HW, which made the whole sequence non static and didn't behave like a basic combo (especially since it could cut when dropping BotD).
Obviously, AoE combos have never been exactly the best part of the game and didn't branch. But saying there was AoE combos in ARR/HW is wrong because there was no AoE combos in HW yet. Perhaps I should have added the ARR/HW precision... which seems to coincide either way because SB is where they started weeding out buttons from combos anyway.

Way to miss the point though.

[SubmarineAlt]

Some of you with the opinion that this is a good idea are pretty funny to read. Bad mentalities like these are why some of you are so.... Inexperienced. Or hard stuck purple on the easiest role. - hint hint-

[Carighan]

Branches can still be condensed into fewer buttons anyways. They're right that old MCH's proc combos couldn't be, though.

It's also more intuitive that way, compare, oh I don't know, any fighting game ever or so.

If you got a 1-2-3-4 combo, but also a 1-2-5-6 combo, but also a 1-7-8-9 combo, you expect those to use just 3 buttons, and for the 5/6 and the 7/8/9 button to do something else entirely or flat out not be available before it's "step" in the chain (since most fighting games don't have hotbars we can't really say whether it should be lit up or not, in FFXIV's context I'd have it not lit up).

So for example, for Warrior:

* One button cycles Heavy Swing -> Maim -> Storm's Path
* The second button is just Storm's Eye, tooltip says "can only be used after Maim", and it's not lit up until after you used Maim (and that button cycles to Storm's Path), then it lights up until the next GCD is used (no matter which).

Upsides: Hotbar debloating, complexity removed at no loss of gameplay depth.
Downsides: None, really. Some jobs like RDM have utter edge cases for specific single GCDs near the end of a fight, there's be a very very small loss with those but ugh... fair enough. Fair price to pay to make everything else less silly and 20y less outdated compared to any other game.

Because if you look at the examples I gave above, what it actually says is A-A-A-A, A-A-B-B and A-C-C-C. In more normal notation usually done in beat'em ups or fighting games. Dragoon for example has just two main combos, A-A-A-A-A and A-B-B-B-A. It's just smoke and mirrors to make it sound more complex than it actually is with the way our skills are all on separate hotbar spots.

[Mikey_R]

Way to miss the point though.

You said, every basic combo in the game had branches, no exceptions, Dragoon directly contradicts that by having basic combos that never used to branch, so, an exception.

Infact, doesn't matter how you spin it, Dragoon always contradicts the statement. ARR, no branches, HW, RNG Branches, SB no branches, ShB > DT branches. The only reason I mentioned Heavy Thrust > Ring of Thorns was to cover all the combos from ARR.

Really, the only issue was the fact you said no exceptions, of which I bought up an exception. If you had said most, there wouldn't be an issue. Sorry that I happened to take what you wrote as it was written.

[Azurarok]

It's also more intuitive that way, compare, oh I don't know, any fighting game ever or so.

Like this is a fighting game, or any actual action game for that matter.
No real animation lock/recovery or forced movement, there's barely any combos that can be interrupted (i.e. from dodging/guarding), and hitting the target doesn't interrupt them either.

Some of that used to exist but they were all stripped away for 'reduced stress' and ddr fight design.

I'd associate whatever direction they're going with more with a bullet hell shmup, in which case of course everything looks like button bloat. I'd be surprised if the devs have a proper vision of what they want the game to be anymore.

[Valence]

You said, every basic combo in the game had branches, no exceptions, Dragoon directly contradicts that by having basic combos that never used to branch, so, an exception.

Infact, doesn't matter how you spin it, Dragoon always contradicts the statement. ARR, no branches, HW, RNG Branches, SB no branches, ShB > DT branches. The only reason I mentioned Heavy Thrust > Ring of Thorns was to cover all the combos from ARR.

Really, the only issue was the fact you said no exceptions, of which I bought up an exception. If you had said most, there wouldn't be an issue. Sorry that I happened to take what you wrote as it was written.

Thank you captain Akshtually. You never disappoint.

Way to still miss the point. Especially since the system precisely behaved like a 4th step to the combo even though it was rng, you still had to choose between two set skills to terminate the line with.

[Mikey_R]

Way to still miss the point.

Should we go back to the start? The initial claim was that 'Every basic combo in the game had branches, no exceptions'.

Dragoon started with no branches in it's combos in ARR, this is a direct exception to your no exception statement.

After that statement, your original post stated that they started weeding out the branches, which again, Dragoon directly contradicts, ending at the state it is in now with more branching combos than it started with.

We also have Samurai and Red Mage who both have branching combos and as of yet, they haven't been reduced (and just to point out, no I'm not going to count Hyosetsu, the ice AoE shown in the job action trailer and is now only in PvP as it never made it to the release build for PvE actions).

The reason I am being so pedantic is a common trend I tend to see at the moment is people making generalised statements, acting like it applies to everything and making conclusions based on that false premise. This sort of thing helps noone and isn't a good way to try and get your actual grievances across.

To give an example, the common thing to say at the moment is, 'all jobs play the same'. This is completely untrue, but people still say it with no thought. However, dig deeper and what you actually find is people hate the fact every job plays into the 2 minute meta, which gives a much clearer picture as to what the actual issue is. There is also the fact that, in this case, saying every job plays the same, but the person receiving that feedback doesn't agree, then it is just going to get thrown out.

All this to say, words matter.

[Valence]

All this to say, words matter.

Okay, I actually agree. Thank you for the clarification, but can we move on to the actual discussion instead of this constant pedantry, when it's not outright sophistry?