The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Katalb]

I hope they'll bring back Foe Requiem

[Aravell]

If, after all of that which quite clearly shows they play differently with different considerations, you still want to make the claim they are the same. I genuinely do not know what to say.

Like I said, if you're going to nitpick to that point, obviously you're going to find a bunch of differences. But in a gameplay flow perspective, those 2 jobs feel almost identical to me, the only glaring difference would be the Mudra system.

I'll just agree to disagree, I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me.

But that is the reality we live in: games like FFXIV are successful because their business models care more about the *appearance* of depth than actual depth, so long as the casuals stay fed. Because they, and the in-store glams and level skips, are where the money is.

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

[HappyHubris]

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Even if there was no impact on casual retention, it's easier to DEVELOP a game where the classes are homogenized and there is a large buffer between success and failure.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

The thing is that MMOs have multiple axis for "casual" and "hardcore:" skill level and time invested. I've met people who spend a TON of time in game - every class at 90, buy all the glamours, participate in a lot of social interaction with other users - and never touch extreme or savage content. Heck, I know a guy who crafts and clears to get his wife things to stick in their in-game housing, because she enjoys that part of the game more than combat. MMOs are social things that happen to have combat for some people, and many of those that are left happily respond to earning items even if the content you need to grind is absolutely droll.

[SeverianLyonesse]

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

I just think that is a very naive way of framing the issue. It is never about whether gaming or games are or were ever "harmful" to casuals.

It is just the reality that gaming expanded from a niche technical interest into mass consumption entertainment media. Yes, you could side with the casuals that they are somehow "harmed" by challenge, or even take the opposite approach and villify them for being lazy and unskilled.

But the relationship between accessibility/popularity and lack of challenge will always exist in all forms of media. Consumers (in this case gamers) don't like to admit it, but entertainment is still a leisure activity. What that ultimately means is that:

1. Most people in reality do not have the time or interest to spend their free time being mentally taxed. Life is taxing enough. So profitability of ANY media will always trend toward being unchallenging and placative. A game (or film, or music, or whatever) can either be deeply designed, or it can be massively commercially popular, but it really cannot aspire to be both. Exceptions occur (and usually in spite of complexity, not because of it), but they are extremely rare and FFXIV is not one of them.

2. This romanticized notion that "gaming" consumption-as-identity requires gaming to be "challenging" is a bit of a delusional sham. It is maintaining at best a compartmentalized notion that challenge and accessibility even can reasonably be co-prioritized. And at worst maintaining a nostalgic fantasy of gamers = niche nerds = hard games that simply doesn't describe the industry and communities anymore. "Gaming" is not the unique thing it used to be that I think people act like it still is; it is massively popular/populist and now caters to a lower common denominator.

[Aravell]

The thing is that MMOs have multiple axis for "casual" and "hardcore:" skill level and time invested. I've met people who spend a TON of time in game - every class at 90, buy all the glamours, participate in a lot of social interaction with other users - and never touch extreme or savage content. Heck, I know a guy who crafts and clears to get his wife things to stick in their in-game housing, because she enjoys that part of the game more than combat. MMOs are social things that happen to have combat for some people, and many of those that are left happily respond to earning items even if the content you need to grind is absolutely droll.

None of this is contradicting anything I said. In fact, it makes the dev team look worse, because it means they're willingly alienating a portion of the playerbase to cater entirely to another portion that's already happy with the game.

Also, not every casual player is entirely happy with just socialising, flashy animations and engaging story either. There's been quite a few players who say that they're casual and never touch extreme/savage but also hate the job simplifications.

[fulminating]

almost everyone can agree that PLD is more complex than WAR or BLM is more complex than SMN - and we can ignore the wrong people.

Are you talking about pre or post rework paladin?

[HappyHubris]

Are you talking about pre or post rework paladin?

Post; there are more resources, buttons, and conditionals.

[Ayche]

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

[Valence]

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

The performer also doesn't ask for feedback about the volume for the concert.

I'm a customer, not a metal groupie.

[Aravell]

"Would you be 'happier' had I a 'good reason'? If my motives met with your approval, would you no longer resent the outcome?"

It is super fine to alieanate customers, video games are not hospitality service. We don't ask the performer to turn down the volume at the metal concert.
Overall this is how they see FFXIV at its best.

I don't know in what universe alienating a portion of their customers to cater more towards another portion that's already satisfied is the best decision for a game, but ok.