The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Aravell]

If, after all of that which quite clearly shows they play differently with different considerations, you still want to make the claim they are the same. I genuinely do not know what to say.

Like I said, if you're going to nitpick to that point, obviously you're going to find a bunch of differences. But in a gameplay flow perspective, those 2 jobs feel almost identical to me, the only glaring difference would be the Mudra system.

I'll just agree to disagree, I'm not convincing you and you're not convincing me.

But that is the reality we live in: games like FFXIV are successful because their business models care more about the *appearance* of depth than actual depth, so long as the casuals stay fed. Because they, and the in-store glams and level skips, are where the money is.

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

[HappyHubris]

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Even if there was no impact on casual retention, it's easier to DEVELOP a game where the classes are homogenized and there is a large buffer between success and failure.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

The thing is that MMOs have multiple axis for "casual" and "hardcore:" skill level and time invested. I've met people who spend a TON of time in game - every class at 90, buy all the glamours, participate in a lot of social interaction with other users - and never touch extreme or savage content. Heck, I know a guy who crafts and clears to get his wife things to stick in their in-game housing, because she enjoys that part of the game more than combat. MMOs are social things that happen to have combat for some people, and many of those that are left happily respond to earning items even if the content you need to grind is absolutely droll.

[SeverianLyonesse]

The problem with this statement is that who can definitively prove that HW and SB design were harmful to the casuals? They were still clearing content back then and as far as I remember, they weren't complaining about X or Y job being too hard.

Also, as for where the money is, sure, some casuals buy store stuff, but by nature of being a casual, they're very likely not logged in to the game very much. It's usually the hardcore players that make the game feel alive, the ones who sub for months on end to clear raids, the big fishers, the achievement hunters. They're the ones doing content and keeping the game alive, not the people who do the MSQ and then quit until next patch.

I don't think catering completely to casuals can keep your game healthy, a balance does need to be reached.

I just think that is a very naive way of framing the issue. It is never about whether gaming or games are or were ever "harmful" to casuals.

It is just the reality that gaming expanded from a niche technical interest into mass consumption entertainment media. Yes, you could side with the casuals that they are somehow "harmed" by challenge, or even take the opposite approach and villify them for being lazy and unskilled.

But the relationship between accessibility/popularity and lack of challenge will always exist in all forms of media. Consumers (in this case gamers) don't like to admit it, but entertainment is still a leisure activity. What that ultimately means is that:

1. Most people in reality do not have the time or interest to spend their free time being mentally taxed. Life is taxing enough. So profitability of ANY media will always trend toward being unchallenging and placative. A game (or film, or music, or whatever) can either be deeply designed, or it can be massively commercially popular, but it really cannot aspire to be both. Exceptions occur (and usually in spite of complexity, not because of it), but they are extremely rare and FFXIV is not one of them.

2. This romanticized notion that "gaming" consumption-as-identity requires gaming to be "challenging" is a bit of a delusional sham. It is maintaining at best a compartmentalized notion that challenge and accessibility even can reasonably be co-prioritized. And at worst maintaining a nostalgic fantasy of gamers = niche nerds = hard games that simply doesn't describe the industry and communities anymore. "Gaming" is not the unique thing it used to be that I think people act like it still is; it is massively popular/populist and now caters to a lower common denominator.