The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Valence]

Things like this (from the end of Page 1) tend to amuse me. They think the graphic that goes with it shows how SE has "lost their way", without realizing it actually just proves SE right.



We're up to 7.0 and the dev team is finally doing its first significant graphics upgrade. Definitely no such obsession there.



Again, exactly what SE is doing. The game continues to have fan-service galore, and they recognize that their primary audience is casual players who don't want overly complicated systems, but rather something engaging that they can still just have fun with and not feel the need to be perfect or making the game their "job". (See Destiny 2 for a good example of what happens when a dev team listens to the loudest voices rather than the bulk of their playerbase.)



FFXIV remains first and foremost an FF game. Meaning a primary focus on storytelling. What good is the story if only a select portion of the playerbase gets to actually experience all of it? The emphasis remains on storytelling rather than complex systems, borrowed power, endless grinds. Note: Not forgetting your roots != never changing anything about your game. If you don't evolve with the times, you get stuck in the past, and that will render you irrelevant quite quickly. Groups of any sort survive by staying true to their core, while simultaneously keeping up with changing times and constantly seeking new members.

Please pray tell, when was the casual playerbase unable to experience the whole story back in ARR/HW/SB? When was the casual playerbase overwhelmed by so called complex systems and when was it unable to have fun in storymodes, dungeons and alliance raids?

Or maybe are you actually telling us that there was just no casual playerbase back then?

[rawker]

Actually, a certain casual player from a decade ago is not afraid of taking on complexities.

*Raises hand*

[Valence]

I am very disappointed with the direction they are taking the game in terms of job design vs. fight design difficulty and engagement.

Job design should be THE ONE that is most engaging and has high skill ceiling. This way every player is engaged in gameplay even in casual content or grinding. What they are doing is dumbing down the jobs to levels where you fall asleep in dungeons, while making the savage fights harder and harder with body checks, memory games, one shots and no way of recovery.

I completely stopped doing roulettes as I can't bear the 123 simulator on all melees including tanks, or 111 simulator on healers. Sure, in a very difficult fight like TOP or P12S I still struggle to execute perfect rotation and I am engaged a lot. But that's not enough since I only do this content for 10% of my game time and the rest feels super boring.

From the live letter it seems that they are going even more into that direction, possibly making many jobs just 1112 and oGCD weaving copies of each other. The encounters in turn will have to be really exceptional to compensate...

The other MMO I played, Aion-classic, truly not a good game content wise, but the combat is very engaging.
Every class feels different with unique things it can do and what it can optimize like normal attacks timing, dispel timing, aggro/mana/cc/pet management etc.
Sure, you can just mash your buttons and clear most of PVE content, but if you want - there are so many things to improve in. I really miss that possibility here.

I said it many times and ultimately it boils down to what pvp retained in EW and what pve lost in ShB: once you remove enough basic building blocks in your lego set so much that you're only left with one red brick and one blue plank, no matter how creative you think you can be, good luck reaching an actually satisfying variety in the final design output.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

1. Tanks can have a simple rotation but it shouldn't be as simple as it is currently, but I don believe tanks need to have more combo paths in general, they already have a slower gcd then most melee jobs, They also have no paths outside warrior... which makes them feel very bland and samey, I'm not asking for every tank to have a complex fast rotation but more combo paths or more to set Tanks aside from one another DPS Wise would actually help make the game more interesting, I also think tanks should have mechs where they need to use intervention, TBN Ect (outside of using it on the other tank)or stuns/interrupts more often, I sort of like that tanks have utility similar to healers but i wish we had a lot more use cases of said utility. I just feel that tanks are in a bad spot gameplay wise because rotations are made to be super easy but playing a tank for tanking skills isn't exactly engaging anymore... I think Tanks need more rotational complexity in general still, doesn't need to be to the level of DPS, But more importance on tanking skills would also be fun

2. Healer design doesn't work because they don't often need to GCD heal Imo, the choice between damage and healing is what makes a healer fun, Jobs bringing utility to work with a healer instead of replacing their job is also fun, being able to save GCD's for attacks because of cooperation is healthy, I do think we get into certain instances where abilities such as Bloodwhetting is too much in AOE situations where you can't really balance healers around it, but the fix there would to be make the heal not per enemy. Even if 90% of what it effects is dungeon content I don't think dungeon metas should be 3 DPS and 1 Tank. I don't think healers need a rotation but some more procs and damage buttons would also go nicely.

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Can't say I disagree with you, I think the main focus should be looking at Tank/healer design. I do think people are somewhat valid in disliking the 2 minute meta, personally im pretty neutral on it, but I think it's valid to at least say jobs are starting to feel more samey and closer together then they have been in the past.

[Mikey_R]

So what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that I'm not allowed to point out blatant similarities between jobs because you can wield a bigger brush than me? I don't see your point at all.

The exact same thing I've always been saying. People are to focused on certain aspects of jobs and ignore the rest. By doing this, it makes everything seem the same, when they are infact, different.

But what is "being inspired by" exactly? How do you define this inspiration between pvp and pve kits? We both can play at this little game.

That's pure sophistry you've been doing since the beginning and you know it. You know what people mean, your strategy is just to derail everything into meaningless [B]minutiae that completely misses the bigger picture.[B]

We could tell you that two inner release type bursts feel the same, you'd still come up and tell us "akshtually, the GCD used in both don't have the same potency so they're technically very different!"

I will say, I wasn't the first person to use Inspiration in regards to the exercise, that would be the person I quoted, however, for me, inspiration in this regard it is being used to refer to looking at something, taking some ideas from that design and then adapting it to better suit something else. My whole argument was, take a PvP set and adapt it to a PvE environment. The result will likely be something fairly similar to the PvE set. Something additional to that, considering the current topic, I would most likely be able to take whatever you make and make the claim it is the same as every other job because it shares this one thing with another job.

'Inner Release bursts' feel the same because you have taken away the nuance that makes them feel different. Sorry if you don't agree.

As for the bold, it is people missing the minutiae that is the issue. Poeple have defined jobs by the fact they have a 60 second button and a 120 second button and ignore everything else that makes it unique. If anyone is being dishonest, it is the people making the broad claims.

[Aravell]

The exact same thing I've always been saying. People are to focused on certain aspects of jobs and ignore the rest. By doing this, it makes everything seem the same, when they are infact, different.

Just because some of the job is different doesn't mean I can't point out the blatant similarities between jobs. Saying you can paint with a broader or narrower brush does not change the fact that some aspects are extremely similar.

Like saying MNK and NIN has different ways to build their gauge does not change the fact that all the things I mentioned function the same between both. But if you're going to nitpick that Trick Attack is a debuff and Riddle of Fire is a buff, then I cannot help you, I'll just say that I disagree that there's as much difference as you're seeing.

[Mikey_R]

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Massively culling the 2 minute raid wide buffs would be one of the best things the combat will see. I do fear though that if any sort of temporary raid wide buff were to stay, it would still compel all jobs to try and make use of it and any jobs that don't fit in with that would be left out.

Generally, buffs that are permanent, like Bard's songs or DNC's Standard Step aren't an issue as they buff the whole rotation and not just the burst phase, so there is no ideal window you have to put everything in. This means jobs can be more fluid in how they operate.

It is a tough thing to look at as people will hate getting rid of the raid buffs as it creates that sense of working together, but at the same time, it can also cause issues. The trick will be to balance this fact and the problem currently is it is tipped too far one way.

Just because some of the job is different doesn't mean I can't point out the blatant similarities between jobs. Saying you can paint with a broader or narrower brush does not change the fact that some aspects are extremely similar.

Like saying MNK and NIN has different ways to build their gauge does not change the fact that all the things I mentioned function the same between both. But if you're going to nitpick that Trick Attack is a debuff and Riddle of Fire is a buff, then I cannot help you, I'll just say that I disagree that there's as much difference as you're seeing.

If every job has a 60 second and a 120, you cannot use it to differentiate the jobs. It is similar to me saying, every job has GCDs and oGCDs, therefore they are all the same. Obviously, that isn't a fair thing to say. Once jobs are able to have different timings on things, ie. the design for jobs change so that they don't fit the 60 second and 120 second windows, then you can start using them as a point to say, whilst this job bursts every 40 seconds, this one bursts at every 90 seconds etc. But a trait shared by all isn't something you can use to compare.

Also, technically, Trick Attack and RoF would have differences IF you had encounters that had multiple targets. Ninja can only trick one opponent, and thereby gain damage on that one, whereas Monk gains damage on all enemies due to it being a self buff. Unfortunately, again, encounter design makes this point pointless.

[Aravell]

If every job has a 60 second and a 120, you cannot use it to differentiate the jobs. It is similar to me saying, every job has GCDs and oGCDs, therefore they are all the same. Obviously, that isn't a fair thing to say. Once jobs are able to have different timings on things, ie. the design for jobs change so that they don't fit the 60 second and 120 second windows, then you can start using them as a point to say, whilst this job bursts every 40 seconds, this one bursts at every 90 seconds etc. But a trait shared by all isn't something you can use to compare.

Once again, I am literally not saying "Every job has a 60s and a 120s", I am saying that MNK and NIN both have a 60s that boosts their damage and a 120s that boosts the party while granting them a benefit. Their buff profile is basically identical, doesn't matter how many times you gloss over it or try to bring DNC into it.

You can see what I'm saying, why don't you actually tell me why MNK and NIN are to be seen as different despite most of their gameplay flow being similar as well as being the same archetype instead of rolling my points with the points of other people and glossing over everything in the process?

[Mikey_R]

Once again, I am literally not saying "Every job has a 60s and a 120s", I am saying that MNK and NIN both have a 60s that boosts their damage and a 120s that boosts the party while granting them a benefit. Their buff profile is basically identical, doesn't matter how many times you gloss over it or try to bring DNC into it.

You can see what I'm saying, why don't you actually tell me why MNK and NIN are to be seen as different despite most of their gameplay flow being similar as well as being the same archetype instead of rolling my points with the points of other people and glossing over everything in the process?

Ninja gains 50 gauge upfront and Monk gains it over time, with reliance on other people and has some RNG to it. There is your difference in 2 minute raid buffs. I have already addressed the 60 second buff, however, additionally, Ninja's is also hiddenbehind a Ninjutsu and has potency attached to it.

For the burst loop, Ninja forgoes all of it's normal GCDs in order to fill it's burst with Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is comprised of GCDs that in themselves do damage but different combinations and number of Ninjutsus affect what the final result is. you then have a buff, Kassatsu, that not only strengthens Ninjutsu but transforms 1 combination into a more powerful version (not going into AoE for this). You also have a follow up every time you use Raiton in that of the Raiju's that can be stacked up to 3 but if you do anything else other than a Ninjutsu as a GCD action, they will disappear. They also have interactions with Suiton in not only being able to use Trick attack, but since it also comes out via TCJ, you have Meisui to consume that buff and power up Bhavacakra.

Outside of burst, your aim is to rotate between your 2 combos, making sure your Huton stays active. This will also require you to make sure Huton has enough of a duration before you enter burst. Parallel to that, you have Aeolian Edge, what is effectively the filler rotation, the thing you use when there is no other priority. You are also required to use Ninjutsus in order to not cap them, but still keep enough in order to get 2 off during the bursts.

As for Monk. It's burst is focused around Masterful Blitz, of which this is achieved via Perfect Balance. There are only 3 Masterful Blitzes to use, with a fail state one that has lower potency. All Masterful Blitzes require 3 GCDs with the result coming from how many of each Beast Chakra you have. All the same, Elixir Field, all different, Rising Phoenix and whatever combination you want for Phantom Rush, which is automatic if you have both a Lunar and Solar Nadi. The important thing here is, when going for all the same, the most damage is via the 2 Opo-opo attacks, which does not refresh buffs/debuffs, so you have to ensure they will stay applied for the duration, For all different, you do have the flexibility to refresh the buffs. During this time, you are getting Chakra, not only from your own GCDs but from party members as well and delaying use of The Forbidden Chakra is a potency loss. Everything here is still the regular GCD attacks as opposed to Ninja that completely replaces them.

Outside burst, Monk uses a more unique combo system, where you go through Opo-Opo > Raptor > Coeurl repeat, with each one having 2 GCDs to choose from, one buff/debuff, one pure damage. This means your rotation follows a 2/2/3 pattern. Now, whilst it might seem that you would use the same Raptor move after Opo-Opo, fight mechanics and rotation considerations could mean it does swap around (so instead of Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes, it could end up Dragon Kick > True Strike).

Another major note about resource gain is that they are generated differently. Ninja's is purely rotation based, using certain moves you know you are guaranteed a fixed amount. Monk on the other hand is pure RNG with the only sources of guaranteed Chakra gain being from Bootshine (every 6 GCDs outside burst) and from every GCD under Brotherhood.

There is also a difference in their defensives. Ninja is a shield that is equal to 20% of your max HP, Monk's is a flat 20% damage reduction, with a regen once you do take damage for a total of 500 potency (the equivalent of second wind).

If, after all of that which quite clearly shows they play differently with different considerations, you still want to make the claim they are the same. I genuinely do not know what to say.

[kirinoodles_]

I've never agreed more. I'm a healer main with a great affection towards AST. I really liked the ability to be hybrid even if I understand it being taken away due to balancing both stances. I enjoyed playing healer in all type of content

I'm sad by the fact they all cast at 1.40s. If I were to compare ShB WHM to EW WHM, i'd say I find ShB WHM more interesting. Having to rely on lilies and dots to weave things was making the job harder but it felt satisfying having to plan how to use the free weaves you were given. If clipping Assize was not ok they could have found another way to keep each healer playstyle from blending into one another

In EW I found myself not knowing what job i will play. I feel like outside of some jobs, even in the DPS category, everything gives me the same feeling. It's "2m > build > 1m > build > rinse and repeat" and there's little, if none, buttons to press outside of the 2 and 1m windows

When they gave us more informations (although not clear) about DT AST, it scared me. First of all not having RNG. Because it's the identity of the job gameplay and lore wise. But i'm willing to give it a try, it could be very fun if the cards effects are reverted back to SB/HW. Fun possibilities and also having to pay attention to party composition. However if they aren't, I think we're hoping on the WHM-like train. You'd have no reasons to draw the Lady card set over the Lord set if all the cards in both set have the exact same effects. Drawing the Lady may be worth it if the potencies are changed and you absolutely need an oGCD heal

But considering all the defensive and healing abilities every role are getting, I don't know about that. I wanna believe they will make content do more damage but we said that at ShB to EW. When they do it's not healing checks, it's mitigation checks. Just look at The Omega Protocole. Hardest hitting raid while also being just the hardest raid in general, clearable without any healers ON-PATCH. The people who managed to do this are really good, I'm really amazed. But at the same time I think it's ridiculous that it's possible when the raid just came out. It shouldn't at all or at the very least not on-patch. How did we came to that ?


As a final word, i'd like them to consider that not every job needs to be accessible or cattered to some players. Keep one of them of each category more accessible while keeping the other one harder, so you can have a sense of progression within the same role. I'd like them to also stick to a vision because we go from one extreme to another. Give us a bit more buttons to press outside of burst windows because I'm tired of playing piano on my keyboard/controller then going to sleep for 2m until i have to play piano again. Healers got another DPS button but a 2m follow-up action is not really it. Still welcomed though