The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Massively culling the 2 minute raid wide buffs would be one of the best things the combat will see. I do fear though that if any sort of temporary raid wide buff were to stay, it would still compel all jobs to try and make use of it and any jobs that don't fit in with that would be left out.

Generally, buffs that are permanent, like Bard's songs or DNC's Standard Step aren't an issue as they buff the whole rotation and not just the burst phase, so there is no ideal window you have to put everything in. This means jobs can be more fluid in how they operate.

It is a tough thing to look at as people will hate getting rid of the raid buffs as it creates that sense of working together, but at the same time, it can also cause issues. The trick will be to balance this fact and the problem currently is it is tipped too far one way.

Just because some of the job is different doesn't mean I can't point out the blatant similarities between jobs. Saying you can paint with a broader or narrower brush does not change the fact that some aspects are extremely similar.

Like saying MNK and NIN has different ways to build their gauge does not change the fact that all the things I mentioned function the same between both. But if you're going to nitpick that Trick Attack is a debuff and Riddle of Fire is a buff, then I cannot help you, I'll just say that I disagree that there's as much difference as you're seeing.

If every job has a 60 second and a 120, you cannot use it to differentiate the jobs. It is similar to me saying, every job has GCDs and oGCDs, therefore they are all the same. Obviously, that isn't a fair thing to say. Once jobs are able to have different timings on things, ie. the design for jobs change so that they don't fit the 60 second and 120 second windows, then you can start using them as a point to say, whilst this job bursts every 40 seconds, this one bursts at every 90 seconds etc. But a trait shared by all isn't something you can use to compare.

Also, technically, Trick Attack and RoF would have differences IF you had encounters that had multiple targets. Ninja can only trick one opponent, and thereby gain damage on that one, whereas Monk gains damage on all enemies due to it being a self buff. Unfortunately, again, encounter design makes this point pointless.

[Aravell]

If every job has a 60 second and a 120, you cannot use it to differentiate the jobs. It is similar to me saying, every job has GCDs and oGCDs, therefore they are all the same. Obviously, that isn't a fair thing to say. Once jobs are able to have different timings on things, ie. the design for jobs change so that they don't fit the 60 second and 120 second windows, then you can start using them as a point to say, whilst this job bursts every 40 seconds, this one bursts at every 90 seconds etc. But a trait shared by all isn't something you can use to compare.

Once again, I am literally not saying "Every job has a 60s and a 120s", I am saying that MNK and NIN both have a 60s that boosts their damage and a 120s that boosts the party while granting them a benefit. Their buff profile is basically identical, doesn't matter how many times you gloss over it or try to bring DNC into it.

You can see what I'm saying, why don't you actually tell me why MNK and NIN are to be seen as different despite most of their gameplay flow being similar as well as being the same archetype instead of rolling my points with the points of other people and glossing over everything in the process?

[Mikey_R]

Once again, I am literally not saying "Every job has a 60s and a 120s", I am saying that MNK and NIN both have a 60s that boosts their damage and a 120s that boosts the party while granting them a benefit. Their buff profile is basically identical, doesn't matter how many times you gloss over it or try to bring DNC into it.

You can see what I'm saying, why don't you actually tell me why MNK and NIN are to be seen as different despite most of their gameplay flow being similar as well as being the same archetype instead of rolling my points with the points of other people and glossing over everything in the process?

Ninja gains 50 gauge upfront and Monk gains it over time, with reliance on other people and has some RNG to it. There is your difference in 2 minute raid buffs. I have already addressed the 60 second buff, however, additionally, Ninja's is also hiddenbehind a Ninjutsu and has potency attached to it.

For the burst loop, Ninja forgoes all of it's normal GCDs in order to fill it's burst with Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu is comprised of GCDs that in themselves do damage but different combinations and number of Ninjutsus affect what the final result is. you then have a buff, Kassatsu, that not only strengthens Ninjutsu but transforms 1 combination into a more powerful version (not going into AoE for this). You also have a follow up every time you use Raiton in that of the Raiju's that can be stacked up to 3 but if you do anything else other than a Ninjutsu as a GCD action, they will disappear. They also have interactions with Suiton in not only being able to use Trick attack, but since it also comes out via TCJ, you have Meisui to consume that buff and power up Bhavacakra.

Outside of burst, your aim is to rotate between your 2 combos, making sure your Huton stays active. This will also require you to make sure Huton has enough of a duration before you enter burst. Parallel to that, you have Aeolian Edge, what is effectively the filler rotation, the thing you use when there is no other priority. You are also required to use Ninjutsus in order to not cap them, but still keep enough in order to get 2 off during the bursts.

As for Monk. It's burst is focused around Masterful Blitz, of which this is achieved via Perfect Balance. There are only 3 Masterful Blitzes to use, with a fail state one that has lower potency. All Masterful Blitzes require 3 GCDs with the result coming from how many of each Beast Chakra you have. All the same, Elixir Field, all different, Rising Phoenix and whatever combination you want for Phantom Rush, which is automatic if you have both a Lunar and Solar Nadi. The important thing here is, when going for all the same, the most damage is via the 2 Opo-opo attacks, which does not refresh buffs/debuffs, so you have to ensure they will stay applied for the duration, For all different, you do have the flexibility to refresh the buffs. During this time, you are getting Chakra, not only from your own GCDs but from party members as well and delaying use of The Forbidden Chakra is a potency loss. Everything here is still the regular GCD attacks as opposed to Ninja that completely replaces them.

Outside burst, Monk uses a more unique combo system, where you go through Opo-Opo > Raptor > Coeurl repeat, with each one having 2 GCDs to choose from, one buff/debuff, one pure damage. This means your rotation follows a 2/2/3 pattern. Now, whilst it might seem that you would use the same Raptor move after Opo-Opo, fight mechanics and rotation considerations could mean it does swap around (so instead of Dragon Kick > Twin Snakes, it could end up Dragon Kick > True Strike).

Another major note about resource gain is that they are generated differently. Ninja's is purely rotation based, using certain moves you know you are guaranteed a fixed amount. Monk on the other hand is pure RNG with the only sources of guaranteed Chakra gain being from Bootshine (every 6 GCDs outside burst) and from every GCD under Brotherhood.

There is also a difference in their defensives. Ninja is a shield that is equal to 20% of your max HP, Monk's is a flat 20% damage reduction, with a regen once you do take damage for a total of 500 potency (the equivalent of second wind).

If, after all of that which quite clearly shows they play differently with different considerations, you still want to make the claim they are the same. I genuinely do not know what to say.