The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Sjol]

Going back to what I was saying about job identity, I do think there's some heavy overlap in some of the healer jobs and some of the tank jobs at least for part of their rotations or actions.

Honestly, I kind of see the buttons being pressed like keys on a piano and the sheet music being the rotation we have to play. None of them are exactly the same, but they definitely have shared sections. For me, when mechanical identity (the meters and effects used) and input identity (the cadence and kinds of keys pressed) are too similar the jobs do start to feel similar to play. This is independent of other differences. It can even be subtly different, but my brain is going to recognize the patterns (it is a pattern-finding machine after all).

Some examples of a few areas that stand out to me as feeling similar:

* 100 meters that go up by multiples of 5, with spenders at 50 and optionally have a +50 ability
* 1, 2, 3 ST combos
* 1, 2 AoE combos
* role abilities (kind of by definition)
* 30% mits
* rezes
* early healer spells with the exact same stats
(benefic, benefic 2, helios, aspected helios compared to cure, cure 2, medica, medica 2)

Now this doesn't mean that anything should be done about those similarities like these, but I totally understand the people who are bothered by them. I also think there's a ton of additional design space that isn't being used that could add a lot of distinctness at the cost of balance.

Taking it back to music, I would also say there's nothing wrong with building and reusing themes within a job, maybe even a role. You see that in movie scores especially as they reuse core bits to make the whole feel connected.

I do think it's important to feel where SE has done well in this regard.

* Sage felt like an extension of a theme, but definitely felt different to me in triggering alt behavior for skills.
* Certain jobs have nice little mini-input games (DNC dance, NIN mudra, MNK stances, MCH blast, RPR shroud; with RDM and SMN getting an honorable mentions)
* Certain jobs have distinct acting meters to track (BLM everything, SAM coins, MNK nadi; RPR shroud)

In the cons I'm left to see a lot of tank and healer issues and in the pros, I'm seeing a distinct lack of them. For me it reinforces why some people are feeling the way they are.

[Sjol]

They can't show you any receipts because there are none. Population growth cannot be directly attributed to one thing and one thing only. That's why when asked this question, people can only reply with "Shadowbringers and Endwalker has more players than Stormblood" and refuse to elaborate further.

Surely it has to be the simplified jobs that bring in the players, right? Surely it can't be that Shadowbringers has the most hyped story after the expansion that many regards as having the weakest story. Surely it can't be that Endwalker is the climax of a multi-year long epic saga that many want to see to the end. Surely Dawntrail won't do well because of the graphical update and other major QoL stuff. No, it has to be entirely the simplified jobs!

The one flaw I can see with this logic is that new players didn't experience the story leading up to Endwalker when they decided to buy it. A lot of the people who decided to try it probably just decided to try it because it became a common exodus location after Blizzard debacles. That's clearly not every player who decided to try ShB or EW during the spike, but it's got to be a lot of them.

[Supersnow845]

To me there is alot of jobs that play extremely similarly and other jobs that have the same feeling flow to them that they feel rather repetitive. Jobs don’t have to be 1 to 1 copies to feel extremely similar to each other especially when they have overarching themes that make them feel similar

Let’s use some examples

SGE and SCH is arguably the most egregious example in the game. They have the same DPS rotation in both AOE and single target (they don’t have one), addersgall is a near 1 to 1 copy of aetherflow just as kardia is a near 1 to 1 copy of embrace. Soteria and union, physis and whispering dawn, even their GCD shields have exactly the same shield potency by design. Energy drain is really the one great distinguisher and it’s not remotely enough

Beyond that specific example all the healers play extremely similarly. 11111111 oGCD spam (lilys aren’t a “noticeable difference” on this front). The tanks are basically 2 tanks. There is the 1-2-3 to build some gauge to use a big attack every now and then and then a button you press that allows you to just spam that big attack (WAR and DRK) and then there is the 1-2-3 gives you access to a proverbial 4 and another “combo” with a burst window that relies on that combo (PLD and GNB). On the DPS front MCH and RPR are incredibly similar (rigid 1-2-3 with 2 gauges both of which are integral to the burst and the burst is spammy), NIN and DNC feel very similar to me (which incredibly overfull burst that you stockpile minutes in advance with their core mechanic being short snappy stored DPS that’s refunded later in dance steps and ninjutsu (also note PIC seems likely to fall into this category as well)). SMN feels like a healer without heals. MNK, DRG and SAM share the branching rotation motif that while not the entirety of their rotation definitely feels like a similar foundation that I notice when swapping between them

It really feels like BRD, BLM and RDM are the only ones that feel unique and even they share a lot of features with other classes you pick up on (RDM has the “gain 50 gauge to immediately enter your burst button, BLM has the bloodfest style “press to receive big damage gauge related button” in amplifier and BRD has both the same generic 20% self buff and 6% party buff that feels similar to the melees)

Of course with this many buttons on this many jobs it’s hard to make no overlap but I feel almost every job I can 80% understand it as long as I’ve played one of its partner jobs and that’s a problem

[Mikey_R]

While jobs don't play exactly the same, there are an increasing amount of similarities that you can't deny.

Jobs with 0 to 100 gauge that increases with 1-2-3 and has a button to increase it by 50: WAR, SAM, NIN, MCH, RPR

Jobs that have very similar damage profiles: NIN and MNK

Jobs that press an ability and then spam the same button multiple times: WAR (Inner Release), PLD (Requiescat), DRK (Delirium), MCH (Hypercharge)

Jobs that predominantly mash only 1 or 2 buttons throughout the encounter: WHM, SCH, AST, SGE, SMN

All these similarities blur the lines and make each job feel more and more like the same. MNK and NIN may play differently if you really focus on what you're doing and what buttons you're pressing, but the feeling of gameplay and the damage profiles are undeniably similar (Fast attacking brawler with button input minigame for a big hit).

Now lets look at the DT changes, more jobs got a new attack that's unlocked by pressing 2 minute button that you use in buffs, previously it was SAM'S thing (Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri), that's going to blur the lines even further during burst windows.

Whilst jobs do have similarities, it is the nuance they have that makes them different. As an extreme example, if I said every job has GCDs and oGCDs therefore they all play the same, I would likely be told that that is a ridiculous comment to make.

Going into gauges, yes, there are jobs that have similar gauges, would it make it different if it was a 0-50 gauge instead and the only thing you could spend it on cost 50 gauge? That's Monk's Chakra. GNB gauge goes from 0-30 and you spend it in 10s or on the one things that costs 20. The main point here is everything is a gauge and they are all built and used differently with different considerations.

Spam the same button multiple times? Already addressed.

Healers only having mainly 2 DPS buttons isn't an issue with identity, that is more of an issue with how they built healers. However, it also ignores the rest of the healing kit where the individualities of each healer lie.

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

As with everything, it all comes down to how broad of a stroke you want to paint it all with. For me, going as broad as, every job bursts every 2 minutes, is more of a job design issue and not a job identity issue. Every job feels different to play, every job has different considerations. There is a reason I prefer to play some jobs over another. If every job was truly the same, this wouldn't be the case. Get a finer brush, look at the details and context of things. Not saying it is 100% perfect, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

[Supersnow845]

Whilst jobs do have similarities, it is the nuance they have that makes them different. As an extreme example, if I said every job has GCDs and oGCDs therefore they all play the same, I would likely be told that that is a ridiculous comment to make.

Going into gauges, yes, there are jobs that have similar gauges, would it make it different if it was a 0-50 gauge instead and the only thing you could spend it on cost 50 gauge? That's Monk's Chakra. GNB gauge goes from 0-30 and you spend it in 10s or on the one things that costs 20. The main point here is everything is a gauge and they are all built and used differently with different considerations.

Spam the same button multiple times? Already addressed.

Healers only having mainly 2 DPS buttons isn't an issue with identity, that is more of an issue with how they built healers. However, it also ignores the rest of the healing kit where the individualities of each healer lie.

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

As with everything, it all comes down to how broad of a stroke you want to paint it all with. For me, going as broad as, every job bursts every 2 minutes, is more of a job design issue and not a job identity issue. Every job feels different to play, every job has different considerations. There is a reason I prefer to play some jobs over another. If every job was truly the same, this wouldn't be the case. Get a finer brush, look at the details and context of things. Not saying it is 100% perfect, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Your point on gauges look at say WAR and DRK. They generate gauge near exactly the same (20 gauge on the third hit, WAR gets 10 on the second but only because storms path which is the same easy to maintain damage up as dark side), they both spend it on the same thing and they both have a button that once per minute lets you spam said thing multiple times. The gauge is essentially exactly the same. RPR’s enshroud gauge is almost exactly the same to MCH’s hypercharge gauge

As for healers you can argue their healing kit has nuance but it also doesn’t, I’m not even going to mention SGE/SCH again but you miss with the design of healers that “a skill can be different but feel the same because it achieves the same thing and you press it at the same time”. 9 times out of 10 SCH will press seraph when SGE presses panhiama, are the skills technically different…….yes, do they really feel different when you press them at the same time……….no.

As for NIN and DNC even though you didn’t reply to my comment specifically I did mention those two feel extremely similar to me

Jobs can be painted with broad strokes a lot of the time because we use them so much they can blur, they do have niche differences but you also have to consider how often those niches actually come into play (ie the healers are not the same because of their heals design issue)

[Aravell]

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

It's like you ignored every other bit of similarity and jumped straight to "This job also presses buttons for a minigame for a big hit".

No, DNC is obviously not similar to MNK and NIN, which is why I never argued that they were.

But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

[Mikey_R]

1. When you look at Tank & Healers, they do "play" the same as one another, Tanks generally don't have "interesting rotations" enough to vastly be different...

2. I don't really need to debate healers do I? I hope not.

3. For DPS, I actually agree with you Jobs like Monk vs Dragoon don't play the same, for the most part DPS are fine, Reaper & Summoner I dislike but I'm happy that theirs jobs for beginners (Although with summoner they need more casts per minute), "2 Minute meta" can effect this as we generally have jobs designed around bursts, I do think 2 minute meta hurts variety a bit but doesn't completely remove variety but it does sort of hinder it. I feel as if Melee are pretty "bland" as in theirs no sort of melee that deviates from the standard structure of rotation based jobs, such as having a melee with a lot of proc based gameplay ect. I'll add that I think 2 minute meta is a big reason why jobs feel the same as most jobs work towards that big burst, then cycle on a basic rotation until that big burst, hence why even if a job feels different theirs a lot of similarities to even the most "different" of jobs.

1. For me, tanks should have an easier rotation, however, tanks should also be the ones manipulating the boss in order to make the lives of the other players easier. Unfortunately, over time, this aspect of tanking has devolved which is why so much emphasis is put on their damage rotation. A couple of easy things are tanks being able to manipulate boss positions, having more reason to use your Interventions, TBNs etc. and one idea that I have had is making stuns and interrupts useful, but not necessarily for stopping attacks outright, but changing damage profiles. Altering how that damage comes out.

2. Nope. Healers have a lot of things that haven't worked in their favour. They need more cohesion between their damage and healing kit and then forcing them to actually make the choice between a damage GCD and a healing GCD. The things is, healer design not only relies on the healer's themselves, but also tank kits and encounter design.

3. I would agree, the 2 minute meta does hurt job design space, however, if you want true creative freedom, then damage raid buffs have to go completely, which would make every DPS a selfish DPS. This doesn't mean a party cannot contribute to you though. Things like Arcane Circle, Brotherhood and Technical Step all have things other than the damage component that allows the party to help out that one job, whether it is powering up Plentiful Harvest or giving the Monk or Dancer resources. However, that idea isn't going to go down well with very many people as they want to buff the damage of someone else, so some considerations have to be made. Massively reducing the number of raid wide damage buffs is going to make the 2 minute window far less effective and will allow jobs to diversify away from it.

[Mikey_R]

Your point on gauges look at say WAR and DRK. They generate gauge near exactly the same (20 gauge on the third hit, WAR gets 10 on the second but only because storms path which is the same easy to maintain damage up as dark side), they both spend it on the same thing and they both have a button that once per minute lets you spam said thing multiple times. The gauge is essentially exactly the same. RPR’s enshroud gauge is almost exactly the same to MCH’s hypercharge gauge

As for healers you can argue their healing kit has nuance but it also doesn’t, I’m not even going to mention SGE/SCH again but you miss with the design of healers that “a skill can be different but feel the same because it achieves the same thing and you press it at the same time”. 9 times out of 10 SCH will press seraph when SGE presses panhiama, are the skills technically different…….yes, do they really feel different when you press them at the same time……….no.

As for NIN and DNC even though you didn’t reply to my comment specifically I did mention those two feel extremely similar to me

Jobs can be painted with broad strokes a lot of the time because we use them so much they can blur, they do have niche differences but you also have to consider how often those niches actually come into play (ie the healers are not the same because of their heals design issue)

DRK has Blood Weapon which will generate gauge during Delirium and you have no way to dump it, except Living Shadow, but even that is going in DT. You will generate 30 Blood and there is nothing you can do about it. Warrior, you have to consider not only the damage buff, but also your Infuriate cooldown and whether you have the spare headroom to not overcap Infuriate's cooldown.

Healers, similar, yes, design issue, not necessarily an identity issue.

...
But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

Dancer also has a very similar damage profile. Burst at 60 is tied behind Flourish, also has personal and party burst at 120. No button at 90 however it does try and spam as much gauge stuff into the burst. Party buffs grant them a benefit. Oh, and they don't have a personal damage buff. With the broad strokes people have been using, they are basically the same job.

Healers, yes, issues.

As for the MNK/Ninja niche, there are only so many niches to go around. You are bound to have overlap, but that doesn't mean they play the same. If the 2 minute meta is the issue, that is an overarching job design issue and isn't something you can judge all jobs on to say that there is no identity.

[Mikey_R]

Beyond that specific example all the healers play extremely similarly. 11111111 oGCD spam (lilys aren’t a “noticeable difference” on this front). The tanks are basically 2 tanks. There is the 1-2-3 to build some gauge to use a big attack every now and then and then a button you press that allows you to just spam that big attack (WAR and DRK) and then there is the 1-2-3 gives you access to a proverbial 4 and another “combo” with a burst window that relies on that combo (PLD and GNB). On the DPS front MCH and RPR are incredibly similar (rigid 1-2-3 with 2 gauges both of which are integral to the burst and the burst is spammy), NIN and DNC feel very similar to me (which incredibly overfull burst that you stockpile minutes in advance with their core mechanic being short snappy stored DPS that’s refunded later in dance steps and ninjutsu (also note PIC seems likely to fall into this category as well)). SMN feels like a healer without heals. MNK, DRG and SAM share the branching rotation motif that while not the entirety of their rotation definitely feels like a similar foundation that I notice when swapping between them .

Can't have branching combos because that's just DRG/SAM, can't have procs as that's just DNC/BRD, can't have single combo strings as that is just tanks.

So, what is left? You say BRD/BLM/RDM feel unique, but BLM is a job someone said that follows the 'just spam an attack like Fell Cleave'. BRD and DNC are similar, where most of DNC's procs are off of GCD actions and they have a combo, BRD spams Burst Shot and occasionally procs Refulgent Arrow. I would hardly call that unique. RDM? Just another build to 50 and spend, just like all the rest.

If you thought what I said there was ridiculous and silly. Congratulations, you are seeing jobs for more than their broad strokes. Which is exactly what I am trying to show people.

[Supersnow845]

You are also agreeing jobs are broadly similar (and broadly as in share foundational building blocks that you press often) but then say since they differ in some nuances they are totally different

Like you completely blew off the fact that aravell mentioned the similarity of NIN’s damage profile to MNK’s and then even backed up her point by pointing out that DNC also shares a similar profile. However the buttons you regularly press don’t consititute the jobs feeling too similar for no other reason than they aren’t identical. I happen to find 2 jobs that have a 90 second, a 60 second personal, a 120 group buff that benefits themselves and an active dump of your almost identically generated gauge to be too similar, especially since they are both melee

I won’t even mention you blow off healers every time they are bought up despite having no logical argument for why they are so similar

Your entire argument boils down to basically “they are similar but in broad strokes (never mind said broad stroke constitute the foundation of the job) but they aren’t identical so there is no problem”. Broad strokes class design happens to actually affect job flow and perception. I don’t care that sacred soil is a ground AOE and kerechole is a buff. In a broad strokes sense they are the same and that’s what constitutes job flavour to me