The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Aravell]

Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon.

While jobs don't play exactly the same, there are an increasing amount of similarities that you can't deny.

Jobs with 0 to 100 gauge that increases with 1-2-3 and has a button to increase it by 50: WAR, SAM, NIN, MCH, RPR

Jobs that have very similar damage profiles: NIN and MNK

Jobs that press an ability and then spam the same button multiple times: WAR (Inner Release), PLD (Requiescat), DRK (Delirium), MCH (Hypercharge)

Jobs that predominantly mash only 1 or 2 buttons throughout the encounter: WHM, SCH, AST, SGE, SMN

All these similarities blur the lines and make each job feel more and more like the same. MNK and NIN may play differently if you really focus on what you're doing and what buttons you're pressing, but the feeling of gameplay and the damage profiles are undeniably similar (Fast attacking brawler with button input minigame for a big hit).

Now lets look at the DT changes, more jobs got a new attack that's unlocked by pressing 2 minute button that you use in buffs, previously it was SAM'S thing (Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri), that's going to blur the lines even further during burst windows.

[Mikey_R]

While jobs don't play exactly the same, there are an increasing amount of similarities that you can't deny.

Jobs with 0 to 100 gauge that increases with 1-2-3 and has a button to increase it by 50: WAR, SAM, NIN, MCH, RPR

Jobs that have very similar damage profiles: NIN and MNK

Jobs that press an ability and then spam the same button multiple times: WAR (Inner Release), PLD (Requiescat), DRK (Delirium), MCH (Hypercharge)

Jobs that predominantly mash only 1 or 2 buttons throughout the encounter: WHM, SCH, AST, SGE, SMN

All these similarities blur the lines and make each job feel more and more like the same. MNK and NIN may play differently if you really focus on what you're doing and what buttons you're pressing, but the feeling of gameplay and the damage profiles are undeniably similar (Fast attacking brawler with button input minigame for a big hit).

Now lets look at the DT changes, more jobs got a new attack that's unlocked by pressing 2 minute button that you use in buffs, previously it was SAM'S thing (Ikishoten > Ogi Namikiri), that's going to blur the lines even further during burst windows.

Whilst jobs do have similarities, it is the nuance they have that makes them different. As an extreme example, if I said every job has GCDs and oGCDs therefore they all play the same, I would likely be told that that is a ridiculous comment to make.

Going into gauges, yes, there are jobs that have similar gauges, would it make it different if it was a 0-50 gauge instead and the only thing you could spend it on cost 50 gauge? That's Monk's Chakra. GNB gauge goes from 0-30 and you spend it in 10s or on the one things that costs 20. The main point here is everything is a gauge and they are all built and used differently with different considerations.

Spam the same button multiple times? Already addressed.

Healers only having mainly 2 DPS buttons isn't an issue with identity, that is more of an issue with how they built healers. However, it also ignores the rest of the healing kit where the individualities of each healer lie.

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

As with everything, it all comes down to how broad of a stroke you want to paint it all with. For me, going as broad as, every job bursts every 2 minutes, is more of a job design issue and not a job identity issue. Every job feels different to play, every job has different considerations. There is a reason I prefer to play some jobs over another. If every job was truly the same, this wouldn't be the case. Get a finer brush, look at the details and context of things. Not saying it is 100% perfect, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

[Supersnow845]

Whilst jobs do have similarities, it is the nuance they have that makes them different. As an extreme example, if I said every job has GCDs and oGCDs therefore they all play the same, I would likely be told that that is a ridiculous comment to make.

Going into gauges, yes, there are jobs that have similar gauges, would it make it different if it was a 0-50 gauge instead and the only thing you could spend it on cost 50 gauge? That's Monk's Chakra. GNB gauge goes from 0-30 and you spend it in 10s or on the one things that costs 20. The main point here is everything is a gauge and they are all built and used differently with different considerations.

Spam the same button multiple times? Already addressed.

Healers only having mainly 2 DPS buttons isn't an issue with identity, that is more of an issue with how they built healers. However, it also ignores the rest of the healing kit where the individualities of each healer lie.

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

As with everything, it all comes down to how broad of a stroke you want to paint it all with. For me, going as broad as, every job bursts every 2 minutes, is more of a job design issue and not a job identity issue. Every job feels different to play, every job has different considerations. There is a reason I prefer to play some jobs over another. If every job was truly the same, this wouldn't be the case. Get a finer brush, look at the details and context of things. Not saying it is 100% perfect, but it isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Your point on gauges look at say WAR and DRK. They generate gauge near exactly the same (20 gauge on the third hit, WAR gets 10 on the second but only because storms path which is the same easy to maintain damage up as dark side), they both spend it on the same thing and they both have a button that once per minute lets you spam said thing multiple times. The gauge is essentially exactly the same. RPR’s enshroud gauge is almost exactly the same to MCH’s hypercharge gauge

As for healers you can argue their healing kit has nuance but it also doesn’t, I’m not even going to mention SGE/SCH again but you miss with the design of healers that “a skill can be different but feel the same because it achieves the same thing and you press it at the same time”. 9 times out of 10 SCH will press seraph when SGE presses panhiama, are the skills technically different…….yes, do they really feel different when you press them at the same time……….no.

As for NIN and DNC even though you didn’t reply to my comment specifically I did mention those two feel extremely similar to me

Jobs can be painted with broad strokes a lot of the time because we use them so much they can blur, they do have niche differences but you also have to consider how often those niches actually come into play (ie the healers are not the same because of their heals design issue)