The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

I'm just a little frustrated that the only thing you're telling me is that "it's just pve with some changes". I literally made it on purpose to not throw away and discard the whole pve kit and now you complain that I'm not going wild enough?

I gave you free reign to take any PvP kit and adapt it into a PvE environment. I placed no constraints on how you done that, I never said you had use the current PvE rotation, you could do whatever you wanted, as long as the spirit of the PvP rotation is still there.

I also never complained that you basically made the PvE kit, I made an observation. The fact you used the PvE rotation as a base means it isn't as bad as you first implied. This whole thing was on the premise that, with slight adjustments, PvP kits would work well in PvE. The fact you started with the PvE rotation goes against the whole idea of the exercise.

You say you want the tools to provide different effects, which is fine, but also know that the ones with the highest damage will be placed into burst windows, so you already have a restriction there. Knowing that you can go through 2 cycles in 2 minutes means you will want to do that, which further restricts when you can use specific tools as you don't want to overcap the charges, otherwise you delay your burst. This assumes the tools are stronger than your basic combo, if they aren't, it becomes even worse.

Ultimately, you aren't going to achieve the same feeling you get in PvP when compared to PvE. The PvP kits are suited for PvP only, trying to fit them into PvE encounters just doesn't work.

[Rekh]

To give credit when it's due, EW MCH is more summoner than the actual SMNer job.

How so? Ten characters.

[ty_taurus]

I think it goes without saying that PVP kits do not literally translate to PVE very well. We shouldn’t need to establish that because I would imagine those of us familiar with the game can see that without needing an explanation.

What is being said about PVP is that there is room to take inspiration from the PVP kits when designing adjustments for PVE. That doesn’t mean ripping things directly from PVP as they are and zealously refusing to tweak them in any way.

[MagiusNecros]

Only things we need from PvP is the personal Limit Break and the condensed combo as one button. Which we are getting the condensed combo action as one button in Dawntrail.

Personal Limit Breaks leading into the Party Limit Break would evolve the gameplay in a dynamic way.

[rawker]

How so? Ten characters.

Before you are able to summon the turret or queen, you have to do something, unlike EW SMN, you Oprah the primals.

What's even funnier is that summoning does not have any cost, whatsoever. You are calling primals as if you are tagging in a mahvel game.

[Valence]

I gave you free reign to take any PvP kit and adapt it into a PvE environment. I placed no constraints on how you done that, I never said you had use the current PvE rotation, you could do whatever you wanted, as long as the spirit of the PvP rotation is still there.

I also never complained that you basically made the PvE kit, I made an observation. The fact you used the PvE rotation as a base means it isn't as bad as you first implied. This whole thing was on the premise that, with slight adjustments, PvP kits would work well in PvE. The fact you started with the PvE rotation goes against the whole idea of the exercise.

You say you want the tools to provide different effects, which is fine, but also know that the ones with the highest damage will be placed into burst windows, so you already have a restriction there. Knowing that you can go through 2 cycles in 2 minutes means you will want to do that, which further restricts when you can use specific tools as you don't want to overcap the charges, otherwise you delay your burst. This assumes the tools are stronger than your basic combo, if they aren't, it becomes even worse.

Ultimately, you aren't going to achieve the same feeling you get in PvP when compared to PvE. The PvP kits are suited for PvP only, trying to fit them into PvE encounters just doesn't work.

Of course there is restrictions? What is a job toolkit if no restrictions?

I'm starting to see that you completely missed the point of everything and your whole agenda was to demonstrate that pvp kits don't directly translate into pve. Well, enjoy the strawman captain obvious, because nobody ever postulated that.

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

[flowerfairy]

Yea I appreciate Shadowbringers for the free trial update that hooked me to the game but maybe I made a bad choice choosing to play healers because I’ve been disappointed ever since I learned how much was taken away… Then becoming disappointed once again in both Endwalker and Dawntrail job action trailers. Everything just feels uninspired.

What PVP does well is job identity. Of course PVP abilities wont translate into PVE, but they should be taking note how they’re able to bring a different feeling in every job

[Mikey_R]

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

I planned to as soon as I read it.

I think it goes without saying that PVP kits do not literally translate to PVE very well. We shouldn’t need to establish that because I would imagine those of us familiar with the game can see that without needing an explanation.

What is being said about PVP is that there is room to take inspiration from the PVP kits when designing adjustments for PVE. That doesn’t mean ripping things directly from PVP as they are and zealously refusing to tweak them in any way.

The PvP kits themselves are directly inspired by the PvE kits. So, logically, if you were to take the PvP kits and take inspiration from them to make a PvE kit, logically speaking, you would end up with something that looks similar to the current PvE kits.

The claim then, that the PvP kits have things that the PvE kits could take inspiration from should then be tested. This is why, you start at the PvP kit, take the things out that only apply to PvP, replace with some PvE centred things and make a new kit. Now, if what you come up with is something similar to the PvE kit, then the PvP kit really isn't that inspiring is it?

So aagin, the question is, what is so inspiring about the PvP kits that the PvE kits could learn from?

What PVP does well is job identity. Of course PVP abilities wont translate into PVE, but they should be taking note how they’re able to bring a different feeling in every job

Define Job identity. This one I am curious about. I'm pretty sure people use this term to mean different things, so what does it mean to you and anyone else who wants to answer.

[MagiusNecros]

Define Job identity.

Every job plays the same in PVE. Every job plays differently in PVP down to playstyle, kit and unique effects that only that job class brings. Which goes beyond a raid buff or 2 minute burst or a 5 action Fell Cleave window.

All there is to it. Only PVE job with identity is Blue Mage. And eventually Beastmaster.

[Mikey_R]

Every job plays the same in PVE.

Hard disagree. Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon. Again, instantly invalidates the point.

machinist plays differently to Bard which plays differently to Dancer, Summoner plays differently to Black mage who plays differently to Red Mage.

I could go on, you need to be more specific.