The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Valence]

I gave you free reign to take any PvP kit and adapt it into a PvE environment. I placed no constraints on how you done that, I never said you had use the current PvE rotation, you could do whatever you wanted, as long as the spirit of the PvP rotation is still there.

I also never complained that you basically made the PvE kit, I made an observation. The fact you used the PvE rotation as a base means it isn't as bad as you first implied. This whole thing was on the premise that, with slight adjustments, PvP kits would work well in PvE. The fact you started with the PvE rotation goes against the whole idea of the exercise.

You say you want the tools to provide different effects, which is fine, but also know that the ones with the highest damage will be placed into burst windows, so you already have a restriction there. Knowing that you can go through 2 cycles in 2 minutes means you will want to do that, which further restricts when you can use specific tools as you don't want to overcap the charges, otherwise you delay your burst. This assumes the tools are stronger than your basic combo, if they aren't, it becomes even worse.

Ultimately, you aren't going to achieve the same feeling you get in PvP when compared to PvE. The PvP kits are suited for PvP only, trying to fit them into PvE encounters just doesn't work.

Of course there is restrictions? What is a job toolkit if no restrictions?

I'm starting to see that you completely missed the point of everything and your whole agenda was to demonstrate that pvp kits don't directly translate into pve. Well, enjoy the strawman captain obvious, because nobody ever postulated that.

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

[Mikey_R]

Edit: for real, just respond to ty_taurus that already answered perfectly what was the actual premise about.

I planned to as soon as I read it.

I think it goes without saying that PVP kits do not literally translate to PVE very well. We shouldn’t need to establish that because I would imagine those of us familiar with the game can see that without needing an explanation.

What is being said about PVP is that there is room to take inspiration from the PVP kits when designing adjustments for PVE. That doesn’t mean ripping things directly from PVP as they are and zealously refusing to tweak them in any way.

The PvP kits themselves are directly inspired by the PvE kits. So, logically, if you were to take the PvP kits and take inspiration from them to make a PvE kit, logically speaking, you would end up with something that looks similar to the current PvE kits.

The claim then, that the PvP kits have things that the PvE kits could take inspiration from should then be tested. This is why, you start at the PvP kit, take the things out that only apply to PvP, replace with some PvE centred things and make a new kit. Now, if what you come up with is something similar to the PvE kit, then the PvP kit really isn't that inspiring is it?

So aagin, the question is, what is so inspiring about the PvP kits that the PvE kits could learn from?

What PVP does well is job identity. Of course PVP abilities wont translate into PVE, but they should be taking note how they’re able to bring a different feeling in every job

Define Job identity. This one I am curious about. I'm pretty sure people use this term to mean different things, so what does it mean to you and anyone else who wants to answer.

[MagiusNecros]

Define Job identity.

Every job plays the same in PVE. Every job plays differently in PVP down to playstyle, kit and unique effects that only that job class brings. Which goes beyond a raid buff or 2 minute burst or a 5 action Fell Cleave window.

All there is to it. Only PVE job with identity is Blue Mage. And eventually Beastmaster.

[Mikey_R]

Every job plays the same in PVE.

Hard disagree. Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon. Again, instantly invalidates the point.

machinist plays differently to Bard which plays differently to Dancer, Summoner plays differently to Black mage who plays differently to Red Mage.

I could go on, you need to be more specific.

[MagiusNecros]

Hard disagree.

I hard disagree with your hard disagree. All the classes in PVE play similar to a DPS Warrior. But hey whatever mental gymnastics you need to do to sleep at night. All I see is a poor strawman argument.

I answered your question. If the best you can retort is "No you are wrong" without rebuking with facts and reason then you have no argument. And given your response you are set in your ways. Good day to you.

[Mikey_R]

I hard disagree with your hard disagree. All the classes in PVE play similar to a DPS Warrior. But hey whatever mental gymnastics you need to do to sleep at night. All I see is a poor strawman argument.

I answered your question. If the best you can retort is "No you are wrong" without rebuking with facts and reason then you have no argument. And given your response you are set in your ways. Good day to you.

you're the one who made the initial claim that all jobs played the same, so it is technically down to you to explain how they are the same, however, let's humour you.

Raid buffs, not every job has a raid buff, notably most healers and tanks, however it also extends to DPS with SAM, MCH and BLM having no raid buffs.

The 2 minute burst is problematic, yes, however, not all jobs technically burst every 2 minutes. Paladin as an example has no 2 minute cooldowns, so their 1 minute burst is the same as their 2 minute burst, so it is technically a 1 minute job, this would also apply to the old PLD.

Even jobs like Monk, Dark Knight and Ninja don't technically fully commit to the 2 minute burst as they have cooldowns which have a 90 second recast time on them, which means everything lines up every 6 minutes, though most of it is every 2 minutes.

5 action fell cleave window. Ignoring it is now 3 fell cleaves per Inner Release, this isn't true either. Even the job most compared to War in that regard, DRK, has other things to consider before you get to pressing Delirium that Warrior doesn't have to consider. However, again, not every job has '3 fell cleave button'. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Reaper, Black Mage (they have more to consider than just no thought Fire 4 spam), bard, Machinist.

This is also forgetting the fact you have focused on very very little of the job's kit. Burst every 2 minutes (of which even the 2 minute raid buffs are different) and one button fell cleave equivalent. Okay, what about how the job builds resources in order to execute the bursts, how do jobs spend their time between bursts, do they have mini bursts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, are there things you need to plan ahead before going into burst, etc.

By making such generalised statements, that you haven't even checked to see whether it is true or not, you have failed to think about what you are saying. This is partly why I said I disagreed with your statement and only scratches the surface of why jobs are different.

i guess that means it's your move.

[MagiusNecros]

you're the one who made the initial claim that all jobs played the same, so it is technically down to you to explain how they are the same, however, let's humour you.

You asked to define job identity and jobs playing similar in PVE all leads to a lack of identity

Raid buffs

This is correct, however raid buffs do not reflect how a job class plays

The 2 minute burst is problematic, yes, however, not all jobs technically burst every 2 minutes. Paladin as an example has no 2 minute cooldowns, so their 1 minute burst is the same as their 2 minute burst, so it is technically a 1 minute job, this would also apply to the old PLD.

With a few exceptions there are classes that have 1 minute bursts. However most have 2 minute bursts that they need to line up or delay for other classes 2 minute bursts. Sentinel, Cover, Passage are all 2 minute CDs. So the statement that PLD has no 2 minute CDs at all is false.

Even jobs like Monk, Dark Knight and Ninja don't technically fully commit to the 2 minute burst as they have cooldowns which have a 90 second recast time on them, which means everything lines up every 6 minutes, though most of it is every 2 minutes.

But they still have to conform to the 2 minute meta in a coordinated raid setting

5 action fell cleave window. Ignoring it is now 3 fell cleaves per Inner Release, this isn't true either. Even the job most compared to War in that regard, DRK, has other things to consider before you get to pressing Delirium that Warrior doesn't have to consider. However, again, not every job has '3 fell cleave button'. Monk, Dragoon, Samurai, Ninja, Reaper, Black Mage (they have more to consider than just no thought Fire 4 spam), bard, Machinist.

Warrior spams Cleave, DRK spams Bloodspiller(with new Delirium in 7.0 this may change), GNB spams Gnashing and Burst Strike and is limited by No Mercy windows, Monk has Perfect Balance phase, DRG is an outlier aiming towards triple Nastrond into Stardiver, SAM is Midare Spam, NIN is Raijin spam, Reaper is Enshroud spam, BLM is Fire 4 spam, Bard cycles through Bloodletter or Pitch Perfect spam, MCH is Heat Blast Spam. So it would seem that actually multiple jobs do indeed have a Fell Cleave phase after all.

This is also forgetting the fact you have focused on very very little of the job's kit. Burst every 2 minutes (of which even the 2 minute raid buffs are different) and one button fell cleave equivalent. Okay, what about how the job builds resources in order to execute the bursts, how do jobs spend their time between bursts, do they have mini bursts at 1 minute, 30 seconds, are there things you need to plan ahead before going into burst, etc.

So do your 1-2-3 a couple times to build meter and then you burst. And using your 2 minute which is usually generating half your gauge to have a bigger burst. Most jobs have this.

Check bolded.

[Rithy255]

Hard disagree. Monk plays nothing like Paladin, which automatically invalidates what you said. Different roles? Ok, Monk plays differently to Dragoon. Again, instantly invalidates the point.

machinist plays differently to Bard which plays differently to Dancer, Summoner plays differently to Black mage who plays differently to Red Mage.

I could go on, you need to be more specific.

When you look at Tank & Healers, they do "play" the same as one another, Tanks generally don't have "interesting rotations" enough to vastly be different a example being DRK Vs PLD, Drk's main differences are that it has high APM (which mind you DRK's being slown down pretty heavily in DT), While PLD has more spam gcd's in general (that you get from your 1, 2, 3), Both aren't very interesting enough in variety while technically being different in reality both are very bland, the argument could be said they're "both tanks!" but that doesn't really matter with FF14 design because tanking is designed to be as bare bones as it can be, anything "unique" about being a tank has been pretty much removed from the game. Personally I think tanks should have way more rotational variety.

I don't really need to debate healers do I? I hope not.

For DPS, I actually agree with you Jobs like Monk vs Dragoon don't play the same, for the most part DPS are fine, Reaper & Summoner I dislike but I'm happy that theirs jobs for beginners (Although with summoner they need more casts per minute), "2 Minute meta" can effect this as we generally have jobs designed around bursts, I do think 2 minute meta hurts variety a bit but doesn't completely remove variety but it does sort of hinder it. I feel as if Melee are pretty "bland" as in theirs no sort of melee that deviates from the standard structure of rotation based jobs, such as having a melee with a lot of proc based gameplay ect. I'll add that I think 2 minute meta is a big reason why jobs feel the same as most jobs work towards that big burst, then cycle on a basic rotation until that big burst, hence why even if a job feels different theirs a lot of similarities to even the most "different" of jobs.

When people mention Job variety (aka jobs are samey, in the sense they don't bring anything unique on the table) I think some people want certain jobs to offer more then just rotation variety, which is another topic for another day, But I feel as the main issue comes in tank and healer design where both roles in general are suffering from having jobs mesh, all being builder spenders or in healers case just being press one button, Cooldowns/support on those jobs are pretty much the same, with small room for differences.

[Mikey_R]

1. When you look at Tank & Healers, they do "play" the same as one another, Tanks generally don't have "interesting rotations" enough to vastly be different...

2. I don't really need to debate healers do I? I hope not.

3. For DPS, I actually agree with you Jobs like Monk vs Dragoon don't play the same, for the most part DPS are fine, Reaper & Summoner I dislike but I'm happy that theirs jobs for beginners (Although with summoner they need more casts per minute), "2 Minute meta" can effect this as we generally have jobs designed around bursts, I do think 2 minute meta hurts variety a bit but doesn't completely remove variety but it does sort of hinder it. I feel as if Melee are pretty "bland" as in theirs no sort of melee that deviates from the standard structure of rotation based jobs, such as having a melee with a lot of proc based gameplay ect. I'll add that I think 2 minute meta is a big reason why jobs feel the same as most jobs work towards that big burst, then cycle on a basic rotation until that big burst, hence why even if a job feels different theirs a lot of similarities to even the most "different" of jobs.

1. For me, tanks should have an easier rotation, however, tanks should also be the ones manipulating the boss in order to make the lives of the other players easier. Unfortunately, over time, this aspect of tanking has devolved which is why so much emphasis is put on their damage rotation. A couple of easy things are tanks being able to manipulate boss positions, having more reason to use your Interventions, TBNs etc. and one idea that I have had is making stuns and interrupts useful, but not necessarily for stopping attacks outright, but changing damage profiles. Altering how that damage comes out.

2. Nope. Healers have a lot of things that haven't worked in their favour. They need more cohesion between their damage and healing kit and then forcing them to actually make the choice between a damage GCD and a healing GCD. The things is, healer design not only relies on the healer's themselves, but also tank kits and encounter design.

3. I would agree, the 2 minute meta does hurt job design space, however, if you want true creative freedom, then damage raid buffs have to go completely, which would make every DPS a selfish DPS. This doesn't mean a party cannot contribute to you though. Things like Arcane Circle, Brotherhood and Technical Step all have things other than the damage component that allows the party to help out that one job, whether it is powering up Plentiful Harvest or giving the Monk or Dancer resources. However, that idea isn't going to go down well with very many people as they want to buff the damage of someone else, so some considerations have to be made. Massively reducing the number of raid wide damage buffs is going to make the 2 minute window far less effective and will allow jobs to diversify away from it.

[Rithy255]

Snip.

1. Tanks can have a simple rotation but it shouldn't be as simple as it is currently, but I don believe tanks need to have more combo paths in general, they already have a slower gcd then most melee jobs, They also have no paths outside warrior... which makes them feel very bland and samey, I'm not asking for every tank to have a complex fast rotation but more combo paths or more to set Tanks aside from one another DPS Wise would actually help make the game more interesting, I also think tanks should have mechs where they need to use intervention, TBN Ect (outside of using it on the other tank)or stuns/interrupts more often, I sort of like that tanks have utility similar to healers but i wish we had a lot more use cases of said utility. I just feel that tanks are in a bad spot gameplay wise because rotations are made to be super easy but playing a tank for tanking skills isn't exactly engaging anymore... I think Tanks need more rotational complexity in general still, doesn't need to be to the level of DPS, But more importance on tanking skills would also be fun

2. Healer design doesn't work because they don't often need to GCD heal Imo, the choice between damage and healing is what makes a healer fun, Jobs bringing utility to work with a healer instead of replacing their job is also fun, being able to save GCD's for attacks because of cooperation is healthy, I do think we get into certain instances where abilities such as Bloodwhetting is too much in AOE situations where you can't really balance healers around it, but the fix there would to be make the heal not per enemy. Even if 90% of what it effects is dungeon content I don't think dungeon metas should be 3 DPS and 1 Tank. I don't think healers need a rotation but some more procs and damage buttons would also go nicely.

3. I feel like raid buffs are kind of in a spot where some can be removed, Personally If I were to keep buffs I'd keep, Certain things such as Bards consistent buffs, Some 2 minute buffs but also be fine with more 1 minute buffs or single target buffs, I think the key is that not every DPS outside 3 of the different categories needs a damage buff, it's more Unique to be a "selfish DPS" then to be a buff DPS which strikes me as odd... But I think 2 minute meta isn't a massive issue I'd argue DPS is in a fairly good spot, But I would like jobs to be less about just building and spending into the 2 minutes, but I don't think that can be avoided I just think buffs need to be changed in a direction that makes them more interesting then "lol you press button once every two minutes"

Can't say I disagree with you, I think the main focus should be looking at Tank/healer design. I do think people are somewhat valid in disliking the 2 minute meta, personally im pretty neutral on it, but I think it's valid to at least say jobs are starting to feel more samey and closer together then they have been in the past.