The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Jeeqbit]

when a xpac is out they're already working on the next one.

In all my experience playing this game for 9 years, I will say this:

1. They tend to say they are "thinking" about the next expansion in the first patch.
2. They continue to let the ideas grow, slowly discussing them and molding them into something.
3. As they begin work on the third patch, it becomes integral to have a plan for the next few patches which "build up" to the next expansion (well, except for Endwalker which did that all in half a patch). Once the third patch is done, they switch their focus to the new expansion and start actually developing it (concept art, areas, music, trailers, etc).
4. Around the fourth patch we get a fan fest that reveals the first trailer, mostly concept art, and some stuff they've actually finished, a rough plot of what we're doing.
5. Develops from there, as they update us on the progress at each fan fest into the fifth patch and onwards. In the final stretch, after the areas are done they rush through implementing all the quests and frantically localizing them all.

This is what I've gathered from following it for years. My impression is it's all ideas up until the .3 patch, then they start developing it. So your feedback is useful up until the .3 patch, it might be after that patch but as time goes on, it gets increasingly unlikely to implement it because they've already decided things.

[Zadood]

Endwalker released on December 7th, 2021 and Dawntrail releases on July 2nd, 2024. Based on that, we could assume 8.0 will release on December 10th, 2026 (which will be a consistent 2 and a half years).

If they try really hard to make it like other expansions and reduce the patch lull from 8-9 months to 5 like in the past, then they might manage July, but so far things have only got longer.

Isn't someone else in forum has pointed out the expansion credit rolls has showed that the size of FFXIV development team has increased?

The size of development team has increased.
Yet the months between patch release is increased, at the same time the amount of content on patch release is getting lesser and lesser.
While they also decided that island sanctuary will no longer supported in DT.

Strange don't you think? That even with the size of development team increased, they still refused to dedicate themselves on develop the big content feature they introduced on expansion such as GC rank and squadron, deep dungeon, eureka/bozja, hard mode dungeon, recently island sanctuary. And dropped some of introduced big feature on some expansion.

According to what I have gather so far...

SB expansion introduced ultimate raid, introduced field operation such as eureka, continued hard mode dungeon as well as optional dungeon, continued optional boss trial questline, continued deep dungeon, introduced Blue Mage.

SHB expansion dropped hard mode dungeon, turn optional dungeon into MSQ dungeon, dropped deep dungeon, delayed ultimate raid to EW expansion, continued field operation as Bozja, continued optional boss trial, continued Blue Mage

EW expansion introduced Island Sanctuary, merged optional dungeon with optional boss trial into part of the MSQ, introduced PVP Crystal Conflict, introduced Criterion Dungeon, dropped field operation, re-continued deep dungeon, released ultimate raid that supposed to released in SHB, continued Blue Mage

DT expansion, according on what we got so far, dropped Island Sanctuary, continued field operation, continued deep dungeon, continued Criterion Dungeon, continued PVP Crystal Conflict, as the other still waiting for confirmation on Dawntrail release.

PVP so far is the only big feature that has done right and still receive update and support.
And Criterion can done well with proper reward structure.

[Mikey_R]

Hard disagree even if the environments are obviously different. A lot of the pvp abilities and ideas behind them could work perfectly well in pve with some adjustment, because they literally start with a clear core concept and everything is designed around it, unlike for pve that just uses generic concepts like combo patterns, 2min burst finishers or models shared between every class in the game.

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

[ty_taurus]

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

For Sage:

> Eukrasian Dosis I/II/III duration reduced from 30 seconds to 15 seconds.
> Phlegma I/II/IIIcooldown reduced from 40 seconds to 20 seconds.
> Pneuma reworked: potency significantly increased, cooldown reduced to 55 seconds, healing effect removed; now grants 3 layers of Panhaima-style layered barriers that lasts 30 seconds.
> Toxikon changed from a GCD spell to an OGCD ability with 3 charges and a 10 second recast timer; potency reduced. Does not consume Addersting; separate from Toxikon II.
> New attack spell: same potency as Dosis I/II/III, higher MP cost, Applies a barrier on Kardion target for 8 seconds; if this barrier breaks, grants Addersting.
> Toxikon II changed from a GCD spell to an OGCD ability that costs Addersting, potency is the same as Dosis I/II/III.

^ That would be a start.

[Valence]

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

For MCH for example, a lot of the crowd control can be adjusted into pve friendly debuffs that do similar but different things.

1) The multitool gets into a rotative cycle like in pvp, where you go through Drill > Bioblaster > Anchor > Chainsaw on a 60s cycle. You have 2 charges of it per minute for example.
Reassemble (2 charges) becomes used like Analysis in pvp and changes or adds additional effects to the tool it is used on. Maybe on a 40s recharge so you get 2 charges every 120s, and 1 additional charge for a smaller burst every odd minute.
- Basic Drill is just a big potency tool single hit like today. Rea Drill gets doubled potency or CDHit like today in pve (single target).
- Basic Bioblaster is the same AoE dot than today. Rea Bioblaster gets a slow debuff of 5% or 10% of 10-15s duration on every target hit (useful for AoE and dungeons)
- Basic Anchor is still a battery generator like today. Rea Anchor paints the target and triggers bishop's additional effects (raid buffs)
- Basic Chainsaw is a normal line AoE like today, doesnt generate battery. Rea Chainsaw gets an execute effect doubling its AoE potency, or just removing the AoE falloff on every target hit that is below 25 or 50% HP (whatever works best for balance/feeling), could also add a bleed effect (AoE).

2) The filler is split shot, slug shot, clean shot into the finisher (long cast time, slow walk) blast charge. Since here we have gauges, we can keep freedom into when we want to overheat with hypercharge unlike pvp where it instantly overheat at 5 blast charge stacks without input.
- No battery gains
- Heat gains to be adjusted depending on the amount of combos expected per minute.

3) The job keeps its pve gauges and still uses hypercharge as it can be used today, same for barrel stab. It gets the additional pvp effect of increased movement speed +25% during overheat (overheat being the additional buff). We can also imagine overheat bringing back the old 20% damage buff if we want to use other things than just heat blast inside.
- Optional but not related to pvp: turn ricochet into a proc of gauss round, else those two skills are completely redundant and uninteresting right now. Alternative: HB resets only gauss round, while Auto CB does on ricochet.
- Using Hypercharge dumps heat into battery generation

4) Battery can be spent on different automatons:
- 50 battery required for queen, it always consumes 50, potency stays fixed. 60s cooldown to prevent conflicting with bishop. Would be tempted to add more manual interactions with queen to make it less zzzz, but that's beyond the scope of this.
- 50 battery required for bishop autoturret, is AoE potency pulsing autos. Generates a shield that pulses and gives small barriers to the party during its (short) duration. Targets hit are afflicted by a vuln debuff. Bishop can be stacked with queen.

5) Additional weapons:
- Scattergun deals damage like in pvp, either a big double hit on single target, or a single hit on multiple targets and if multiple targets are hit, reduces the cooldown of the next Rea by 5-10s per target hit. It can count double into Wildfire as well if used at the end.
- Flamethrower is an AoE tool that deals more damage to slowed enemies (synergy with Rea Bio or just other sources of slow like arm's length). Also generates battery (1 battery per target hit per second for example, not worth it in single target).

6) WF stays like it is in pve/pvp, with the pvp twist that the last hit registered (in pvp it's 3, can be more here depending on what we want) immediately triggers detonation for better control.
- Idea of burst: Queen summon, Rea Drill, Turret summon and Rea Anchor for buffs, WF/hypercharge -> hypercharge ends -> scattergun to finish on WF last trigger. Opener would have no battery and I'm okay with this, but not opposed to barrel stab also giving battery, or maybe you actually just start with full battery gauge and zero heat.
- I hesitated to make WF fully like in pvp where it's a short cd similar to scattergun, and that you ideally combine with scatter but that sounds like too wild of a departure from pve and raid buffs/bursts.

7) 2500 MP used for second wind. You can use it as many times as you want until out of MP. Can be replicated for all jobs having second wind tbh, would make some use of MP back to the menu.

8) 120s cooldown sniper rifle, could be tied to heat, or something else? idk


Edit: I would see this bring a lot more choices to make centered around the multitool, unlike today where it's just fire and forget.

[Valence]

Could you provide an example of how you would adapt a PvP kit for use in PvE?

An RDM example (it's going to be wild):

1) RDM keeps its pve combo and dualcast, no problem there. The melee combo can also stay, and in fact it's also used in pvp even if Resolution is detached from it.

2) Introduce White and Black shift.
- Black Shift is focused on damage
- White Shift is focused on utility and restorative
- It is possible to swap between White and Black shift instantly like in pvp, with almost no recast timer, allowing to switch on the fly right in the middle of a combo.

3) Black Shift
- Spell combos: increased potency
- Melee combo: potent dot stacks per melee hit

4) White Shift
- Spell combos: no cast times
- Melee combo: barrier stacks per melee hit (probably only used for heavy damage or solo purposes)

5) Corps-à-corps & Displacement (multiple charges like today)
- Inflicts target with monomachy: +10% damage dealt to target (used before the melee combo for example) and -10% target taken from target (used to self mitigate, no more sad red mages noises with no manaward)

6) Spell procs (verfire, verstone) work like today, and the game becomes how you use your white spells for mobility and your black spells for power.

7) Mana gauge
- Melee combos consume only one side of the gauge, which is based on whether you use melee hits in black or white shift.
- Ending on Redoublement in white shift unlocks Verholy, which is instant cast and AoE heals around the RDM. Ending on Redoublement in black shift unlocks Verflare, which has a cast time and deals more damage.
- It is still required to keep the gauge balanced like today, but reaching imbalance instead makes it harder to accumulate the higher of the two.

8) Magicked Barrier is only available under White Shift and costs white mana (+ cooldown). Same for Vercure and Verraise (very steep white cost on top of MP cost).
- Can justify white shift even when not required by mobility

9) Black and White shift play
- The idea is to juggle the balance between both gauges like today, and go into black or white shift depending on the situation (mobility, damage, heal/support...)

10) Grand Cross (120s cd): used in white Shift heals a crapton an AoE around the target, and used in black Shift grants Embolden/Frazzle to everybody hit around the target (works like pve embolden)


Now you can move as a RDM, not just with reprise or melee combos.

[Mikey_R]

For MCH for example, a lot of the crowd control can be adjusted into pve friendly debuffs that do similar but different things.

It's worth noting right off the bat there is a contradiction in your list. You initially stated that the tools would rotate like in PvP, so it starts Drill, on use it turns into Bio Blaster, which turns into Air Anchor then into Chainsaw before going back to drill, however, in point 6 where you give an 'ideal' burst, you start with Drill, oGCDs, then Air Anchor. By my reasoning, that cannot happen. Either that or there is something I am missing.

As to the thing as a whole, you have basically made PvE MCH with the following changes (for ST):
1. 4 step combo with no Battery Generation.
2. Hypercharge generates Battery, presumably to replace the Battery lost from the combo.
3. Rather than alternating Gauss Round and Ricochet, you mainly just use Gauss Round, though I assume Ricochet is still used, it just won't have its cooldown shortened by Heat Blast.
4. Scattergun is now a high potency attack with 50% damage fall off (and a ridiculously strong effect of reducing Reassembles cooldown per enemy hit). I will also assume it has a cooldown since we are basing this off of the PvP kit and you didn't mention otherwise.
5. 2 Turrets, one to debuff the enemy and one to do damage.

I will assume you flubbed the opener when referring to tools and so will assume they work like PvP, with a 15 second cooldown (as you said you can do 1 full rotation a minute) with 2 charges. With Air Anchor being as crucial to burst as it is, I don't see it lining up without having to hold charges and wasting the cooldown. As for the comment on choices to make with the tool. If it is like PvP, you have no choice, you rotate through them getting to the one that gives the most damage when you need it (reassembled Air Anchor in Burst). if they are separate, then you have 2 for AoE and 2 for ST, unless those AoE tools have potencies which allow them to be used in ST, in which case, I now have 4 tools fighting foe the same spot, Air Anchor is Burst starter, Assuming Drill is highest potency, what use do the other 2 have?

As for the Sniper Rifle, a 2 minute cooldown attack, thought people hated those? Even if you wanted to tie it to a resource, it is still a 2 minute cooldown.

Now, regardless of all that. This whole thing was started as an exercise to adapt the PvP kit into a PvE environment. So, what makes your kit more suited to that environment compared to the current PvE set? Why is yours better?

An RDM example (it's going to be wild):

You will be in Black Shift 99% of the time, unless you need movement, making the whole mechanic seem almost pointless. Remember, damage is the aim. In parties, you have healers do do the healing and mitigating (along with Tanks), so that extra 'utility' in White Shift is pointless. In solo play, it might be more interesting, having to balance out White and Black in order to properly keep yourself alive.

[Reimmi]

"8.0 will have more job identity"

Did they forgot?

Gonna bookmark this for when they don't actually improve job identity and quadruple down on shb design in 8.0, and this was just a "please don't unsub" throwaway line

[Valence]

It's worth noting right off the bat there is a contradiction in your list. You initially stated that the tools would rotate like in PvP, so it starts Drill, on use it turns into Bio Blaster, which turns into Air Anchor then into Chainsaw before going back to drill, however, in point 6 where you give an 'ideal' burst, you start with Drill, oGCDs, then Air Anchor. By my reasoning, that cannot happen. Either that or there is something I am missing.

As to the thing as a whole, you have basically made PvE MCH with the following changes (for ST):
1. 4 step combo with no Battery Generation.
2. Hypercharge generates Battery, presumably to replace the Battery lost from the combo.
3. Rather than alternating Gauss Round and Ricochet, you mainly just use Gauss Round, though I assume Ricochet is still used, it just won't have its cooldown shortened by Heat Blast.
4. Scattergun is now a high potency attack with 50% damage fall off (and a ridiculously strong effect of reducing Reassembles cooldown per enemy hit). I will also assume it has a cooldown since we are basing this off of the PvP kit and you didn't mention otherwise.
5. 2 Turrets, one to debuff the enemy and one to do damage.

I will assume you flubbed the opener when referring to tools and so will assume they work like PvP, with a 15 second cooldown (as you said you can do 1 full rotation a minute) with 2 charges. With Air Anchor being as crucial to burst as it is, I don't see it lining up without having to hold charges and wasting the cooldown. As for the comment on choices to make with the tool. If it is like PvP, you have no choice, you rotate through them getting to the one that gives the most damage when you need it (reassembled Air Anchor in Burst). if they are separate, then you have 2 for AoE and 2 for ST, unless those AoE tools have potencies which allow them to be used in ST, in which case, I now have 4 tools fighting foe the same spot, Air Anchor is Burst starter, Assuming Drill is highest potency, what use do the other 2 have?

As for the Sniper Rifle, a 2 minute cooldown attack, thought people hated those? Even if you wanted to tie it to a resource, it is still a 2 minute cooldown.

Now, regardless of all that. This whole thing was started as an exercise to adapt the PvP kit into a PvE environment. So, what makes your kit more suited to that environment compared to the current PvE set? Why is yours better?



You will be in Black Shift 99% of the time, unless you need movement, making the whole mechanic seem almost pointless. Remember, damage is the aim. In parties, you have healers do do the healing and mitigating (along with Tanks), so that extra 'utility' in White Shift is pointless. In solo play, it might be more interesting, having to balance out White and Black in order to properly keep yourself alive.

Good catch. Oops. You could reorder the list of tools. Also, you'd probably need to rework a little bio and chainsaw to make them stand out more in single target scenari since everything they do is tailored for AoE. After all, it's not like I spent 3 years designing this reply to smooth everything out, it was just musings at best.

You basically missed the whole point behind, and perhaps I should have been less into the gritty details to prevent you to literally get lost in minutiae. I have not just "made pve MCH with the following changes" no. I have introduced a cycle of tools with charges that have to be used in order but can still be delayed or used to fit different situations. They can also be augmented with reassemble. Perhaps the reassemble effects could need some reworks, and tbh they're mostly examples of what I'd find flavorful. I like the idea that if my trash mob in dungeons is fresh out the oven and my bioblaster is coming up, I can reassemble it, help the tank with an AoE slow, and then use FT to capitalize on it. I like that when the pack of mobs is dying I can delay my tools a little and use Rea chainsaw to mow them down. I like that my tools like in pvp are dedicated for specific tasks, which is after all, the whole idea behind something called "tools". In pve, they are all the same flavor and do the same thing.

The fact still remains that you have a limited amount of reassembles to use and you need to make choices into what you want to burn them. Alternatively you can even remove the cycle completely if you want full choice but that would also prove problematic since people would probably try to cram everything into the burst window and be left with literally nothing left to do in terms of multitool for the remaining 50s until next refresh. The cycle is here to keep some constraints and force a certain flow, but its charges also removes it to become incredibly rigid.

Now, thinking about it more, since there is 2 AoE and 2 ST tools in my thing, and 3 reassemble per 120s, you'd rea almost every tool you want to use in both scenari. Perhaps i'd rework them to have Rea adjust some of them for AoE and some for ST. Perhaps Rea Drill becomes a Piercing Drill that gets through the first target and hits everything behind with decreasing damage. Perhaps Rea Anchor makes it AoE. Perhaps basic Bio blaster is worth it even in ST because the dot is short but very strong. Perhaps chainsaw is also worth it in ST because it's not too low potency and it makes the cycle go on. There is plenty of ideas to be worked around that concept, that's the whole core of pvp MCH tools.

Sniper Rifle, you can remove if you want. It's just there because I honestly don't know what to do with it.

I'm just a little frustrated that the only thing you're telling me is that "it's just pve with some changes". I literally made it on purpose to not throw away and discard the whole pve kit and now you complain that I'm not going wild enough?

[rawker]

To give credit when it's due, EW MCH is more summoner than the actual SMNer job.