The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Zadood]

Not talking about dungeon content. I'm talking about optimization runs in Savage content.

That's part of the reason why things like Crit variance are progressively designed out of the game, because you reset if you're unlucky. I think a degree of variability is good, and even necessary to keep things interesting.

But still doesn't change the fact that most content in FFXIV require reward to stay relevant.

As for Crit Variances, you can fault the encounter design team for that one. When the team was gauging how much health a boss should have, they SHOULDN'T factor in crit variances, but they obviously did.

If anything, scored a big critical damage on boss should means that the raid team can focus more on clearing mechanic without being too "stessed" out about passing dps check/enrage.

In another word, more rooms for mistake on a lucky pull that scored a lot of hard hitting crit damage.

[Awful]

I want job identity but that's not til 8.0, every job is being even more streamlined, it's sad to say after playing this game for so long I just feel 'meh' bout DT which pains me as I really love this game. I guess I'll just be playing for the story and maybe do the EXs if I can get through how back handed the tank designs are, hell VPR even has the same job gauge as RPR and almost the same abbreviation lol.

Just give me flavor, substance, none of this watered down job and encounter design combined with 2 min of rotations that you hit a button with 7 other people and yay raid buffs administered. Now do that again for another 6-8 minutes with lucky crits.

[Raikai]

I want job identity but that's not til 8.0, every job is being even more streamlined, it's sad to say after playing this game for so long I just feel 'meh' bout DT which pains me as I really love this game. I guess I'll just be playing for the story and maybe do the EXs if I can get through how back handed the tank designs are, hell VPR even has the same job gauge as RPR and almost the same abbreviation lol.

Just give me flavor, substance, none of this watered down job and encounter design combined with 2 min of rotations that you hit a button with 7 other people and yay raid buffs administered. Now do that again for another 6-8 minutes with lucky crits.

Yeah, it didn't sit very well with me knowing that they do have plans to revitalize job's identities but that'll probably be somewhere around 2026 with 8.0.

But sitting on the subject for a while... it kind of makes sense? They want to promote more unique fights in DT, which theoretically would be the actual foundation to apply whatever the reworked job identities are gonna get in 8.0. It's just sad that they can't have both together. And also, what's the point of AST and DRG rework? They could've just put on a band-aid to mend the most glaring issues about those two jobs.

Unless the rework they're getting is the actual band aid.

[Rekh]

Yeah, it didn't sit very well with me knowing that they do have plans to revitalize job's identities but that'll probably be somewhere around 2026 with 8.0.

But sitting on the subject for a while... it kind of makes sense? They want to promote more unique fights in DT, which theoretically would be the actual foundation to apply whatever the reworked job identities are gonna get in 8.0. It's just sad that they can't have both together. And also, what's the point of AST and DRG rework? They could've just put on a band-aid to mend the most glaring issues about those two jobs.

Unless the rework they're getting is the actual band aid.

2026? That's highly optimistic, I would say it will take them until 2028. Dawntrail's mid 2024, they usually don't count release year as that expansion's year. 2025 will be the first year, 2026 and 27 are filler years, with 2028 release.

[Jeeqbit]

Yeah, it didn't sit very well with me knowing that they do have plans to revitalize job's identities but that'll probably be somewhere around 2026 with 8.0.

Me either. I don't know how they let that slip when trying to build excitement for THIS expansion. It also makes you wonder if they only just learned of this feedback that has been going around the community for years about job identity.

what's the point of AST and DRG rework?

AST needed something. DRG on the other hand didn't and they actually said it isn't changing much like they previously suggested it would.

2026? That's highly optimistic, I would say it will take them until 2028. Dawntrail's mid 2024, they usually don't count release year as that expansion's year. 2025 will be the first year, 2026 and 27 are filler years, with 2028 release.

It used to take about 2 years. Endwalker changed things by extending the expansion lull to 8 months. Dawntrail has continued this, which makes it a trend now.

Endwalker released on December 7th, 2021 and Dawntrail releases on July 2nd, 2024. Based on that, we could assume 8.0 will release on December 10th, 2026 (which will be a consistent 2 and a half years).

If they try really hard to make it like other expansions and reduce the patch lull from 8-9 months to 5 like in the past, then they might manage July, but so far things have only got longer.

[Valence]

Complex is not the greatest word I'd use. Some people would probably love insanely difficult job kits but I doubt that's the whole point. It's more about fun channeled through elaborate designs, intricacies etc. There is a reason people regularly bring up pvp toolkits as they do exactly just that with 4 times less buttons. Every ability synergizes with the others and works within a coherent entity focused around a specific purpose and mechanic. It gratifies with rewards in effectiveness when pulled properly.

Any job would work, but if you take DRK for instance, the whole point is about spending HP to unleash potent attacks, and balancing your tanking with your spending of HP. Some abilities like Sole Survivor can snowball as when you kill someone with it, you regain HP and MP and reset plunge/survivor, which allows you to kill more people. The LB also makes you self heal from damage done which further compounds the spending of HP and recuperating it before the end of the timer. It's a perfect example of a virtuous circle that rewards you with more as long as you keep the loop going. RPR generates harvest stacks by spending their main gcd spender and killing people, and those stacks are consumed like in pve to boost the damage of plentiful harvest. The more you kill people, the most powerful your harvest can be for its use every minute. Using harvest also makes you LB replenish way faster so you need to know when to use it and when to hold it. The whole point of RDM is knowing when to shift between white and black stances, one being defensive/curative and the other for pure damage. Being able to swap at will can even allow people to make combinations in the middle of combos to adjust and transform the effects of their skills at a whim. And so on. Every job is designed with a clear and specific purpose in mind, unlike pve. And what does pvp also have? Resource scarcity and management, notably MP.

A whole pvp toolkit is usually encapsulated into 7-8 buttons, and 4 more universal actions. Many abilities have multiple effects coming attached to them and they tend to synergize with others from other skills. Is this complex? Somewhat but that's not exactly the word I'd use to describe such a simple system with so little buttons. Intricate or elaborate, yes. Or maybe, just focused on rewarding good uses. Current pve rewards people with a big shiny button every 2 minute with follow up finishers that you get when pressing a button, that's about it. Next you have skills filling up gauges and some gauge spenders to spend the time and that's pretty much it.

Fun doesn't need to come necessarily from complicated systems, but giving rewards for using your toolkit well when presented by various situations also means that skill gaps are gonna appear again, and they obviously don't want that.

[Raikai]

Me either. I don't know how they let that slip when trying to build excitement for THIS expansion. It also makes you wonder if they only just learned of this feedback that has been going around the community for years about job identity.

I've heard the idea that realistically Endwalker feedback on the base structure elements (eg job gameplay, encounter design) of the game would only be taken in works for 8.0 since when a xpac is out they're already working on the next one. I'm not sure if this is really true on the practical sense of the production cycle, because Endwalker issues were fully evident as far as we got into the first raid tier. Isn't there like, still a lot of time to change plans around?

But if that's really true, what we're getting on DT about encounter design is a reflection of Shadowbringer's feedback.

AST needed something. DRG on the other hand didn't and they actually said it isn't changing much like they previously suggested it would.

Right, but they could address AST's issues with minor fixes, such as reducing Draw to 1 charge or even making it a GCD with Play an oGCD, giving a different effect to Lord/Lady and changing Astrodyne's damage buff to be the 1-seal bonus. I'm not terribly mad at it, but I feel that removing the RNG altogether was overkill, they just needed to look at Astrodyne.

[AmiableApkallu]

*snip*

Fun doesn't need to come necessarily from complicated systems, but giving rewards for using your toolkit well when presented by various situations also means that skill gaps are gonna appear again, and they obviously don't want that.

PvP kits also exist in the context of highly dynamic, unscripted, unpredictable encounters.

"Using your toolkit well" in PvE will never mean or feel like the same thing, regardless of what PvE kits look like, so long as PvE encounters are the polar opposite.

[Valence]

Hard disagree even if the environments are obviously different. A lot of the pvp abilities and ideas behind them could work perfectly well in pve with some adjustment, because they literally start with a clear core concept and everything is designed around it, unlike for pve that just uses generic concepts like combo patterns, 2min burst finishers or models shared between every class in the game.

We used to have some rewarding virtuous loops in pve too, like for bard old repertoire based on dots, DRK's old sole survivor, mch designed entirely around heat management and overheat all feeding into a gigantic burst, etc. We had variation and flavor, and purpose of design.

[MagiusNecros]

PvP kits also exist in the context of highly dynamic, unscripted, unpredictable encounters.

More of that stuff in PvE pls. All for that no dungeon/boss run is the same experience. Because dynamic gameplay is exactly what people are looking for in this game.