The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[WaxSw]

Can you define job complexity? What would make a job complex? Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

No. Regardless of how intuitive or easy something may be percieved by an experienced individual, there is always a degree of objective complexity left. Someone that has mastered math may find an operation like an integration trivial from their perspective but even under that perspective they can easily identify that said integration is several leagues ahead of complexity when compared to a sum and even under their perspective they still may find some problems that, while being able to solve them, they find hard to do, engaging and complex.

On a game complexity is one of the wheels of the player growth and engagement. Its a constant supply of intrinsic (and extrinsic if properly designed) rewards that encourages them to find new approaches to an already known situation and dive deeper in the game's systems

[Mikey_R]

As someone gains knowledge of something, they may choose to reorder things on the complexity spectrum. Something that initially had the appearance of, say, "depth", might turn out to be quite shallow on further investigation, and vice versa.

Significantly relabeling which chunk of the spectrum is "simple" vs. "complex" is probably more akin to losing a sense of perspective.

So, more knowledge shifts your perspective on what it means for something to be complex, one way or the other. Which is the crux of what I was saying, admittedly, focusing more on the more knowledge means things will be perceived to be less complex rather than the potential it might be more, but I would say the former is a more likely scenario when put into the context of FFXIV.

I think you're misunderstanding what people want. I don't think people want complexity that remains just as complex forever, because that's not possible. I think what people are looking for is complexity that grants repeatable engagement. Little things you can tweak here and there for each fight that makes you think, even after playing that job for years.

Things can remain engaging even after you build muscle memory of it after all.

I've seen many people claim they want job complexity regardless of the encounter. The majority of what I say is in direct response to that. As you said, things cannot stay complex forever, this is why it is important to not forget about encounter design and how your job's kit relates to it.

No. Regardless of how intuitive or easy something may be percieved by an experienced individual, there is always a degree of objective complexity left. Someone that has mastered math may find an operation like an integration trivial from their perspective but even under that perspective they can easily identify that said integration is several leagues ahead of complexity when compared to a sum and even under their perspective they still may find some problems that, while being able to solve them, they find hard to do, engaging and complex.

On a game complexity is one of the wheels of the player growth and engagement. Its a constant supply of intrinsic (and extrinsic if properly designed) rewards that encourages them to find new approaches to an already known situation and dive deeper in the game's systems

Yes, objectively, you can define a range of complexity for a given item, however, how the person perceives the complexity is just as important as that determines where in that objectivity range that person in particular subjectively sees the complexity. As that person gains knowledge, their perspective of where this line lies shifts based on that knowledge. We are still inside the objective range, but perspectives have shifted. In FFXIV terms, there is only so many ways you can approach a job and, after a bit of playing around, you will find everything basically fits into place and yes, this is true of past expansions as well. With only a limited number of options, it doesn't take long for you to test out everything and pick the best option.

Again, to reiterate, you cannot design a complex job without taking into account encounter design, despite what some people might suggest.

Does an elaborate piece of classical music turn into twinkle twinkle little star if you listen to it enough?

That is a bad analogy as you are not the one performing the song. You are gaining no knowledge or extra mastery just by listening. A better example would be, assuming you start at zero knowledge, would more knowledge and mastery not help you to play that classical piece more easily?

[OgruMogru]

That is a bad analogy as you are not the one performing the song. You are gaining no knowledge or extra mastery just by listening. A better example would be, assuming you start at zero knowledge, would more knowledge and mastery not help you to play that classical piece more easily?

Whether it's familiarity as a listener or familiarity as a performer the thing you are becoming familiar with has not changed and it doesn't suddenly devolve into something lesser just because you've become more familiar with it.

"Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?"

Likewise job complexity would not "disappear" once you have attained a level of mastery, you just....learned how to do it.