The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

Complexity exists on a scale, a spectrum. There's generally broad agreement on the relative positions of things on this spectrum.

For the purposes of discussion, it's sometimes convenient to take a chunk of that spectrum and label it "simple", another chunk "complex", and so on. How that's done is more likely to vary from person to person.

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

[AmiableApkallu]

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

As someone gains knowledge of something, they may choose to reorder things on the complexity spectrum. Something that initially had the appearance of, say, "depth", might turn out to be quite shallow on further investigation, and vice versa.

Significantly relabeling which chunk of the spectrum is "simple" vs. "complex" is probably more akin to losing a sense of perspective.

[Aravell]

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

I think you're misunderstanding what people want. I don't think people want complexity that remains just as complex forever, because that's not possible. I think what people are looking for is complexity that grants repeatable engagement. Little things you can tweak here and there for each fight that makes you think, even after playing that job for years.

Things can remain engaging even after you build muscle memory of it after all.

[Silhart]

I think you're misunderstanding what people want. I don't think people want complexity that remains just as complex forever, because that's not possible. I think what people are looking for is complexity that grants repeatable engagement. Little things you can tweak here and there for each fight that makes you think, even after playing that job for years.

Things can remain engaging even after you build muscle memory of it after all.

Agreed with this 10000%. I'm not sure where people get this idea that complex gameplay suddenly stops becoming fun once you've mastered it. One of my favourite jobs in another MMORPG is one whose core rotation has not changed in 8 years, yet it's as enjoyable today as it was back then. Having different things to tweak for each fight definitely helps a lot, but honestly, sometimes just being able to play a job I took great effort to learn is reward enough for me. That job provides me with enough intrinsic enjoyment I could fight the same boss for years and never get bored.

I wish I could say the same for literally any of the jobs in FF14. I understand these massive job changes happen partly because the devs don't want people to get bored of doing the same rotation for years on end--I truly get it, but I wish they'd understand that killing off chunks of job gameplay I've grown to love is going to make me not want to play (see: MNKs and BLMs freaking out about possibly losing Optimal Drift and Non-Standard respectively). Of all the possible avenues for change, they happened upon the one that leaves us with less than what we had before. Thank you CBU3 very cool