The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Mikey_R]

It's because the Development Team is scared of job complexity.

Can you define job complexity? What would make a job complex? Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

[iVolke]

What would make a job complex?

Having more than 2 buttons to press

[Raikai]

Can you define job complexity? What would make a job complex? Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

Obviously there's a 'puzzle' aspect about jobs. You need to figure out mechanics, which are superficially complex even nowadays. Most jobs seems unintuitive because the game does a really bad job with its tooltips, but with a few days of practice one might get it. Beyond that is what we don't have, which is engagement as job complexity.

Mechanics who won't allow us to run on 'auto-piilot' like non-rotational procs that would feel like 'bonus' if properly used, or finding good moments to use your resources based on certain conditions - which we defnitely don't have with the 2min meta nor the encounter design gives us many of those opportunities (eg. priority adds that need down ASAP), dot management with dots that interact with other parts of the kit, proper pet mechanics of micro-managing, niche actions that would assign sub-roles to some people (eg. someone that isn't a tank who can kite an add from point a to point b).

Anyway, job complexity isn't really a thing on its own. The encounter also need to accomodate it, and currently XIV's encounter design is extremely cemented to have that. I'm hopeful that since they claimed they'll be making encounters more unique, in DT, that will pave the way for a more interesting job design in 8.0, which based on what they said, I suspect it's the plan.

Of course, I'm not holding my breath for anything - I only believe when I see it.

[AmiableApkallu]

Does complexity not disappear once you have a certain level of mastery in that job?

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

[Mikey_R]

It does not. Complexity is an intrinsic quality of the design. Your level mastery does not change that.

That's like saying calculus ceases to be complex once you have a certain level of mastery in it. Calculus is intrinsically more complex than basic, elementary school arithmetic. "Mastering" calculus does not change that.

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

[Zolvolt]

What defines how complex something is though? What you consider complex, I might not and vice versa. So, is complexity something subjective or it is something we can objectively look at and if you can look at it objectively, what parameters are we using to define the level of complexity involved.

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

Complexity can be boiled down to how many things you need to juggle either simultaneously or back-to-back in most cases and in some cases having to play wildly different on a boss-by-boss basis. In FFXIV that ends up boiling down to snapshotting your dots and managing your job gauge. Micro optimizations add a hint to that, but they are generally nothing more than "hit abilities in this order instead" or "hold your cd and use it right before it comes off cd to get 2 uses back-to-back". The odd one will be like "you actually do more dps if you waste this amount of your gauge at this point" This game doesn't have complex systems either that require you to use different abilities or different cooldowns or play your job in a completely different way depending on the boss. World of warcraft is a good example of having that level of complexity in their job design with their current talent tree system, set bonuses, and trinkets. But it's also why that game's class balance is always so poor. There are always classes/specs that are shunned by the community because of this problem.

[AmiableApkallu]

Whilst, yes, calculus is more complex than basic maths, we can both also agree that differentiating X^2 is vastly less complex than integrating ln(Sin[x^2]/Tan[Cos{X}]) or what other made up nonsense you can come up with that will be difficult to do. SO, where is the complexity line drawn?

Complexity exists on a scale, a spectrum. There's generally broad agreement on the relative positions of things on this spectrum.

For the purposes of discussion, it's sometimes convenient to take a chunk of that spectrum and label it "simple", another chunk "complex", and so on. How that's done is more likely to vary from person to person.

[Mikey_R]

Complexity exists on a scale, a spectrum. There's generally broad agreement on the relative positions of things on this spectrum.

For the purposes of discussion, it's sometimes convenient to take a chunk of that spectrum and label it "simple", another chunk "complex", and so on. How that's done is more likely to vary from person to person.

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

[AmiableApkallu]

I agree with this, however, to add on. Would you agree or disagree with the claim that after a person gains knowledge and or understanding on a subject, how complex they then perceive that subject could then change as a result and if so, would this shift it to be more simple, or, more complex.

As someone gains knowledge of something, they may choose to reorder things on the complexity spectrum. Something that initially had the appearance of, say, "depth", might turn out to be quite shallow on further investigation, and vice versa.

Significantly relabeling which chunk of the spectrum is "simple" vs. "complex" is probably more akin to losing a sense of perspective.