The problem with Tripling Down on Shadowbringers Job Design

[Sjol]

Going back to what I was saying about job identity, I do think there's some heavy overlap in some of the healer jobs and some of the tank jobs at least for part of their rotations or actions.

Honestly, I kind of see the buttons being pressed like keys on a piano and the sheet music being the rotation we have to play. None of them are exactly the same, but they definitely have shared sections. For me, when mechanical identity (the meters and effects used) and input identity (the cadence and kinds of keys pressed) are too similar the jobs do start to feel similar to play. This is independent of other differences. It can even be subtly different, but my brain is going to recognize the patterns (it is a pattern-finding machine after all).

Some examples of a few areas that stand out to me as feeling similar:

* 100 meters that go up by multiples of 5, with spenders at 50 and optionally have a +50 ability
* 1, 2, 3 ST combos
* 1, 2 AoE combos
* role abilities (kind of by definition)
* 30% mits
* rezes
* early healer spells with the exact same stats
(benefic, benefic 2, helios, aspected helios compared to cure, cure 2, medica, medica 2)

Now this doesn't mean that anything should be done about those similarities like these, but I totally understand the people who are bothered by them. I also think there's a ton of additional design space that isn't being used that could add a lot of distinctness at the cost of balance.

Taking it back to music, I would also say there's nothing wrong with building and reusing themes within a job, maybe even a role. You see that in movie scores especially as they reuse core bits to make the whole feel connected.

I do think it's important to feel where SE has done well in this regard.

* Sage felt like an extension of a theme, but definitely felt different to me in triggering alt behavior for skills.
* Certain jobs have nice little mini-input games (DNC dance, NIN mudra, MNK stances, MCH blast, RPR shroud; with RDM and SMN getting an honorable mentions)
* Certain jobs have distinct acting meters to track (BLM everything, SAM coins, MNK nadi; RPR shroud)

In the cons I'm left to see a lot of tank and healer issues and in the pros, I'm seeing a distinct lack of them. For me it reinforces why some people are feeling the way they are.

[Supersnow845]

To me there is alot of jobs that play extremely similarly and other jobs that have the same feeling flow to them that they feel rather repetitive. Jobs don’t have to be 1 to 1 copies to feel extremely similar to each other especially when they have overarching themes that make them feel similar

Let’s use some examples

SGE and SCH is arguably the most egregious example in the game. They have the same DPS rotation in both AOE and single target (they don’t have one), addersgall is a near 1 to 1 copy of aetherflow just as kardia is a near 1 to 1 copy of embrace. Soteria and union, physis and whispering dawn, even their GCD shields have exactly the same shield potency by design. Energy drain is really the one great distinguisher and it’s not remotely enough

Beyond that specific example all the healers play extremely similarly. 11111111 oGCD spam (lilys aren’t a “noticeable difference” on this front). The tanks are basically 2 tanks. There is the 1-2-3 to build some gauge to use a big attack every now and then and then a button you press that allows you to just spam that big attack (WAR and DRK) and then there is the 1-2-3 gives you access to a proverbial 4 and another “combo” with a burst window that relies on that combo (PLD and GNB). On the DPS front MCH and RPR are incredibly similar (rigid 1-2-3 with 2 gauges both of which are integral to the burst and the burst is spammy), NIN and DNC feel very similar to me (which incredibly overfull burst that you stockpile minutes in advance with their core mechanic being short snappy stored DPS that’s refunded later in dance steps and ninjutsu (also note PIC seems likely to fall into this category as well)). SMN feels like a healer without heals. MNK, DRG and SAM share the branching rotation motif that while not the entirety of their rotation definitely feels like a similar foundation that I notice when swapping between them

It really feels like BRD, BLM and RDM are the only ones that feel unique and even they share a lot of features with other classes you pick up on (RDM has the “gain 50 gauge to immediately enter your burst button, BLM has the bloodfest style “press to receive big damage gauge related button” in amplifier and BRD has both the same generic 20% self buff and 6% party buff that feels similar to the melees)

Of course with this many buttons on this many jobs it’s hard to make no overlap but I feel almost every job I can 80% understand it as long as I’ve played one of its partner jobs and that’s a problem

[Mikey_R]

Beyond that specific example all the healers play extremely similarly. 11111111 oGCD spam (lilys aren’t a “noticeable difference” on this front). The tanks are basically 2 tanks. There is the 1-2-3 to build some gauge to use a big attack every now and then and then a button you press that allows you to just spam that big attack (WAR and DRK) and then there is the 1-2-3 gives you access to a proverbial 4 and another “combo” with a burst window that relies on that combo (PLD and GNB). On the DPS front MCH and RPR are incredibly similar (rigid 1-2-3 with 2 gauges both of which are integral to the burst and the burst is spammy), NIN and DNC feel very similar to me (which incredibly overfull burst that you stockpile minutes in advance with their core mechanic being short snappy stored DPS that’s refunded later in dance steps and ninjutsu (also note PIC seems likely to fall into this category as well)). SMN feels like a healer without heals. MNK, DRG and SAM share the branching rotation motif that while not the entirety of their rotation definitely feels like a similar foundation that I notice when swapping between them .

Can't have branching combos because that's just DRG/SAM, can't have procs as that's just DNC/BRD, can't have single combo strings as that is just tanks.

So, what is left? You say BRD/BLM/RDM feel unique, but BLM is a job someone said that follows the 'just spam an attack like Fell Cleave'. BRD and DNC are similar, where most of DNC's procs are off of GCD actions and they have a combo, BRD spams Burst Shot and occasionally procs Refulgent Arrow. I would hardly call that unique. RDM? Just another build to 50 and spend, just like all the rest.

If you thought what I said there was ridiculous and silly. Congratulations, you are seeing jobs for more than their broad strokes. Which is exactly what I am trying to show people.

[Aravell]

Dancer's Standard Step and Technical step also have a minigame for a big hit, but I see noone saying that they are the same as Ninjutsu and Masterful Blitz.

It's like you ignored every other bit of similarity and jumped straight to "This job also presses buttons for a minigame for a big hit".

No, DNC is obviously not similar to MNK and NIN, which is why I never argued that they were.

But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

[Mikey_R]

Your point on gauges look at say WAR and DRK. They generate gauge near exactly the same (20 gauge on the third hit, WAR gets 10 on the second but only because storms path which is the same easy to maintain damage up as dark side), they both spend it on the same thing and they both have a button that once per minute lets you spam said thing multiple times. The gauge is essentially exactly the same. RPR’s enshroud gauge is almost exactly the same to MCH’s hypercharge gauge

As for healers you can argue their healing kit has nuance but it also doesn’t, I’m not even going to mention SGE/SCH again but you miss with the design of healers that “a skill can be different but feel the same because it achieves the same thing and you press it at the same time”. 9 times out of 10 SCH will press seraph when SGE presses panhiama, are the skills technically different…….yes, do they really feel different when you press them at the same time……….no.

As for NIN and DNC even though you didn’t reply to my comment specifically I did mention those two feel extremely similar to me

Jobs can be painted with broad strokes a lot of the time because we use them so much they can blur, they do have niche differences but you also have to consider how often those niches actually come into play (ie the healers are not the same because of their heals design issue)

DRK has Blood Weapon which will generate gauge during Delirium and you have no way to dump it, except Living Shadow, but even that is going in DT. You will generate 30 Blood and there is nothing you can do about it. Warrior, you have to consider not only the damage buff, but also your Infuriate cooldown and whether you have the spare headroom to not overcap Infuriate's cooldown.

Healers, similar, yes, design issue, not necessarily an identity issue.

...
But MNK and NIN share a lot more similarities than simply "minigame for big hit". Look at their damage profiles over a fight, it's very similar, personal burst at 60, personal and party burst at 120. They both have an extra button to hit every 90s. They both try to spam as much of their gauge stuff as possible in burst (Bhavacakra and Forbidden Chakra). Both their party buffs grant themselves a benefit, Trick Attack and Riddle of Fire do the exact same thing in different forms.

Of course every job doesn't play the same if you scrutinise the jobs and be pedantic about it. But you cannot in good faith argue that SCH and SGE are very different jobs, or that MNK and NIN don't fill the same niche. That's what people have an issue with. Why have 19 (21 in DT) jobs if they're going to be sorted into pairs of similar jobs?

Dancer also has a very similar damage profile. Burst at 60 is tied behind Flourish, also has personal and party burst at 120. No button at 90 however it does try and spam as much gauge stuff into the burst. Party buffs grant them a benefit. Oh, and they don't have a personal damage buff. With the broad strokes people have been using, they are basically the same job.

Healers, yes, issues.

As for the MNK/Ninja niche, there are only so many niches to go around. You are bound to have overlap, but that doesn't mean they play the same. If the 2 minute meta is the issue, that is an overarching job design issue and isn't something you can judge all jobs on to say that there is no identity.

[Supersnow845]

You are also agreeing jobs are broadly similar (and broadly as in share foundational building blocks that you press often) but then say since they differ in some nuances they are totally different

Like you completely blew off the fact that aravell mentioned the similarity of NIN’s damage profile to MNK’s and then even backed up her point by pointing out that DNC also shares a similar profile. However the buttons you regularly press don’t consititute the jobs feeling too similar for no other reason than they aren’t identical. I happen to find 2 jobs that have a 90 second, a 60 second personal, a 120 group buff that benefits themselves and an active dump of your almost identically generated gauge to be too similar, especially since they are both melee

I won’t even mention you blow off healers every time they are bought up despite having no logical argument for why they are so similar

Your entire argument boils down to basically “they are similar but in broad strokes (never mind said broad stroke constitute the foundation of the job) but they aren’t identical so there is no problem”. Broad strokes class design happens to actually affect job flow and perception. I don’t care that sacred soil is a ground AOE and kerechole is a buff. In a broad strokes sense they are the same and that’s what constitutes job flavour to me

[Mikey_R]

1. Like you completely blew off the fact that aravell mentioned the similarity of NIN’s damage profile to MNK’s and then even backed up her point by pointing out that DNC also shares a similar profile.

2. However the buttons you regularly press don’t consititute the jobs feeling too similar for no other reason than they aren’t identical. I happen to find 2 jobs that have a 90 second, a 60 second personal, a 120 group buff that benefits themselves and an active dump of your almost identically generated gauge to be too similar, especially since they are both melee

3. I won’t even mention you blow off healers every time they are bought up despite having no logical argument for why they are so similar

1. Maybe the point I was making wasn't quite explained correctly. they originally said NIN and MNK are the same, I mentioned DNC, they said, no, DNC doesn't fit, then listed a few criteria. I showed that DNC pretty much does fit that criteria. So, why is it they wanted to exclude DNC from that list? Maybe it is because jobs are more than just broad strokes.

2. Assuming we are still talking about NIN and MNK, they both have different combo structures and generate gauge differently. Ninja also has overhead on their gauge where MNK (currently) does not. Again, most jobs have a 60 second personal, most jobs have a 120 raid buff, most jobs have a gauge. However, there is a reason I like playing Monk and generally do not like playing Ninja.

3. I'm basically agreeing that every healer plays very similarly. However, the original blanket statement of 'all jobs play the same' isn't true. The fact we can single out healers from the rest as being an issue means we are looking into things with more nuance than just broad strokes. The next step is looking at healers and seeing how they can make them different. As an example, Sage and Scholar both treat shields differently. Sage's shields can be turned into a heal after being applied and even Haima/Panhaima heal if they aren't used up completely. Scholar cannot do that. What Scholar can do is turn the shield into pure healing and forgo the mitigation completely. Maybe they should focus more on that. At the end of the day though, there is only so many ways you can restore HP and there will be overlap. That means, it is down to the rest of the kit and how everything interacts with each other in order to make them feel more unique. This then goes back to'Fell Cleave spam' Yes, on the surface, they are the same, but how they interact with the rest of the kit is what matters and that is what makes them more unique.

[Aravell]

Maybe the point I was making wasn't quite explained correctly. they originally said NIN and MNK are the same, I mentioned DNC, they said, no, DNC doesn't fit, then listed a few criteria. I showed that DNC pretty much does fit that criteria. So, why is it they wanted to exclude DNC from that list? Maybe it is because jobs are more than just broad strokes.

I pointed out that DNC doesn't fit the criteria that I set. They don't have a 60s personal damage buff, they don't have a 90s that they use on CD and they most certainly do not fill the same niche.

You're very much painting in much broader strokes than me to try and prove your point while glossing over mine.

[Mikey_R]

I pointed out that DNC doesn't fit the criteria that I set. They don't have a 60s personal damage buff, they don't have a 90s that they use on CD and they most certainly do not fill the same niche.

You're very much painting in much broader strokes than me to try and prove your point while glossing over mine.

So why is it your criteria stopped at that point to not include Dancer? Why do you not then take into account other factors, like the NIN and MNK have different combo structures? How about the fact they have different considerations before burst? how about during burst? Downtime, gap closing etc.

I only made that comparison to mainly prove a point and that point is, you get different results depending on what criteria you are using to judge things. I can just as easily paint with a finer brush to point out the differences that then makes your brush look broad by comparison. The question then is, what size brush do we use to compare.

[Aravell]

So why is it your criteria stopped at that point to not include Dancer? Why do you not then take into account other factors, like the NIN and MNK have different combo structures? How about the fact they have different considerations before burst? how about during burst? Downtime, gap closing etc.

I only made that comparison to mainly prove a point and that point is, you get different results depending on what criteria you are using to judge things. I can just as easily paint with a finer brush to point out the differences that then makes your brush look broad by comparison. The question then is, what size brush do we use to compare.

So what exactly is your point here? Are you saying that I'm not allowed to point out blatant similarities between jobs because you can wield a bigger brush than me? I don't see your point at all.