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  1. #31
    Player
    Anonymoose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    5,043
    Character
    Anony Moose
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    His next line doesn't matter. If he tells us straight up that Hydaelyn lies when it suits her <...> then that makes any information about her suspect.
    Imho, if he straight up tells us Hydaelyn lies, then that makes her the same as every other character in the story, leaving us to rely on the rest of the evidence in our search for the truth, as we always do.

    "Hydaelyn made The Watcher so The Watcher only says what she wants." is, imho, a valid concern - as much as Hythlodaeus being a shade of Emet-Selch's feelings beneath all the other things that influenced his thinking - but then that would also suggest that Hydealyn is willing to admit her lies at the end of the road, lending some credibility to the things she's saying are true at the end of that same road.

    And, imho, the rest of the context does not support, "she's fine, she's just lying" in light of...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    when we confront her in The Aitiascope, it is revealed that she's just fine and has been hoarding aether for 12,000 years
    ...that I disagree that, "A final test to see if you're able to surpass the Endsinger was always necessary, so I always held enough power in reserve to perform that test." and "I lied, I'm doing great." are equivalent statements.

    Say you earmark your last $2,000 for the rent so you don't get evicted. But also you really don't have much left to pay for food and gas and electricity and water and all that. You admit to your friend that you're struggling. Then they see you pay your rent. Are they right to say that you're a liar, you're rich, you're a hoarder, you're doing great? (What if they can prove you've lied non-zero times in your life? Is that proof you're rich?)

    Imho, the surrounding story supports the claim that her last sliver of power was reserved - to ensure that she didn't waste their one chance at assaulting the Endsinger on someone who wouldn't win - as a necessary part of the plan. She saw it as her responsibility.

    CITATION
    Context: Immediately after Hydaelyn's test, she collapses to the ground. Alisaie realizes, too late, that fighting Hydaelyn in her current state might deal her a mortal blow.

    ALISAIE
    No! This can't be happening!

    HYDAELYN
    Hmmm. Though my power is in constant flux, I have always kept a reserve for this very moment. It was a true test of your prowess. You have done well.

    GERMAN

    ALISAIE
    Hydaelyn! Oh nein, deine Kräfte...!
    Hydaelyn! Oh, no, your strength...!

    HYDAELYN
    Heh... Als Wille des Planeten und Wächterin über die Zukunft hatte ich mir genügend Kräfte gespart, diesen letzten Kampf zu Ende zu bringen. Nun ist es gut. Ihr wurdet rechtens geprüft... und habt rechtens gesiegt.
    Heh... As the will of the planet and guardian of the future, I had saved enough strength to finish this final battle. Now it's alright. You have been rightly tested... and you have rightly triumphed.

    FRENCH

    ALISAIE
    Hydaelyn... Ton énergie...
    Hydaelyn... Your energy...

    HYDAELYN
    En tant que volonté de la planète et gardienne de son futur, j'avais conservé juste assez d'énergie pour mener ce combat à son terme. Soyez tranquilles... Vous avez été mis à l'épreuve comme il se doit, et vous avez brillamment réussi.
    As the will of the planet and guardian of its future, I had retained just enough energy to see this fight through to the end. Rest easy... You have been properly tested, and you have succeeded brilliantly.

    JAPANESE

    ALISAIE
    ハイデリン、あなた……やっぱりもう、力が……!
    Hydaelyn, you... of course, your power....!

    HYDAELYN
    フ… 星の意志として、未来の番人として、この一戦をきちんとやり遂げるだけの力は、残してありました。だから、大丈夫……。あなたたちは正しく試され、正しく打ち勝ったわ。
    Hu... I reserved enough strength to complete this battle... as the will of the star, and the guardian of the future... So, don't worry... You were properly tested, and you have properly overcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vyrerus View Post
    One of the crystals makes the same claim that maintaining the brands tax Hydaelyn greatly, while another states that The Watcher and The Lopporits perform regular maintenance on the brands.

    There is still another that is the recording of The Watcher's musings on why the Ascians, possessed of the ability to come to the moon, do not assault the brands.
    Don't those also support the idea that it's true? The rejoinings empower Zodiark, Zodiark struggles against the brands, Hydaelyn struggles (energy-wise Light vs. Dark) to keep the brands from buckling, the Loporrits and Watcher observe her struggling and try to (physical-realty-wise) do surveillance, maintenance, and preparations in case of failure.

    The Ascians know that neither the Watcher nor Hydaelyn can afford to undo Zodiark before figuring out how to deal with the Endsinger. The Ascians know that Zodiark stands the best chance of victory if he remains secret and secure on the moon until he as at full power. Each party knows the others strategy, neither party stands to benefit from changing their own. Nash Equilibrium.

    I would agree that a lot of the lore exists solely because, back when the foundations were built, Hydaelyn couldn't tell you anything that Square Enix didn't know, so a lot of this is just narrative clean-up of beginnings with no plans for endings.

    But I don't think "grossly embellishing" the origin of the war makes the pragmatic assumption that her weakness is a ruse, the stress on the brands being taxing is a ruse, the Watcher and the Loporrits (being creations of Hydaelyn) are acting out performative concern and effort based on lies, etc. when the rest of the story seems (to me, at least) to support the idea that the stuff SE invented at the end to make sense of the beginning is intended to be taken as more or less accurate.
    (16)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 05-31-2024 at 12:11 AM. Reason: Gad Brammar
    "I shall refrain from making any further wild claims until such time as I have evidence."
    – Y'shtola

  2. #32
    Player
    Jonnycbad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,252
    Character
    Seraphus Highwynn
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo View Post
    Ah, my eyes apparently missed that, thanks for pointing me to it.

    Honestly, my best guess would be a mistranslation or perhaps even a writing error.

    It's basically the same in every other language so it's not an error.

    German: Um Zodiark zu bändigen und hier zu versiegeln, entschloss Hydaelyn die Welt und damit auch sich selbst zu zersplittern. Hydaelyn war sich dieses Umstands wohl bewusst und entschloss sich daher, Zodiark - und mit ihm auch sich selbst und das Gestirn - zu zersplittern um ihn hier versiegeln zu können.

    Source: [https://youtu.be/5HtdLS9pE4g?t=820](...dLS9pE4g?t=820)


    French: [https://youtu.be/vMP4A-M2fcQ?t=780](...4A-M2fcQ?t=780)

    ハイデリンの願いはゾディアークの消滅ではなかったことだ。
    終末の根本的な原因を断てたわけではない以上、
    ゾディアークがいなくなれば、それは再開しうる……。
    ゆえに彼女は、世界と自分を巻き込んでまで、
    ゾディアークを分割し、封じるという手を選んだのだ。
    Hyadaelin’s wish wasn’t for the destruction of Zodiark. As long as the fundamental reason for the end of the world remained, if zodiark were to disappear, it could all happen again…. That is why she chose to split up zodiark and seal him away, even if it meant that both she and the world would be wrapped up along with it.
    (1)

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