Astrologian Card System Feedback

[Sani2341]

Survey is missing one major factor:

Interactions between the rest of the kit and cards.

In HW and SB there were ways to use 'bad' cards to buff other cards within ASTs abilities.

During ShB and EW that was reduced to cards unlocking dmg buffs if you collected the right Stickers.

While currently known info on DT ast seems to imply there's not even that left.

[Aravell]

I do care about optimization, but I want that optimization to actually have an ounce of value, not just to pat myself on the back. That's why I equate Addersting to Stormblood Lilies, because even when you optimize Toxikon usage, you get basically nothing out of it. The difference in your own personal damage is less than 1%. That isn't worth respecting the mechanic to me.

I think that's more to do with the dev team's bizarre obsession with perfect balance than any job mechanics. They've been trying to stamp out the benefits of optimisation since Shadowbringers so they can bring the ceiling closer to the floor.

While I agree that having nothing but damage cards lacks any immediate noticeable impact from your own decisions, I don't really agree that RNG died in Shadowbringers. AST back then still required some amount of thinking and knowledge to maximise damage because all jobs have their own personal burst timers and only fully aligned on 0, 6 and 12 minutes, your plans would be changing depending on whether you draw a melee or ranged card.

I do agree that AST RNG kind of died in Endwalker though. The change to make every job burst on 2 minutes means that you no longer have to know the personal timing of every DPS job, you just need to split them into 3 categories: Early burst (SMN), Steady damage/variable burst (BLM/BRD) and Mid-late burst (SAM), that's why I regard AST as only middling complexity now. But I still vastly prefer AST compared to the other healers in Endwalker because AST at least requires some braincells.

In the end, I do want to see utility returning, but I don't think what we have now is entirely bad if we could get some improvement on it.

[IDontPetLalas]

I think that's more to do with the dev team's bizarre obsession with perfect balance than any job mechanics. They've been trying to stamp out the benefits of optimisation since Shadowbringers so they can bring the ceiling closer to the floor.

While I agree that having nothing but damage cards lacks any immediate noticeable impact from your own decisions, I don't really agree that RNG died in Shadowbringers. AST back then still required some amount of thinking and knowledge to maximise damage because all jobs have their own personal burst timers and only fully aligned on 0, 6 and 12 minutes, your plans would be changing depending on whether you draw a melee or ranged card.

I do agree that AST RNG kind of died in Endwalker though. The change to make every job burst on 2 minutes means that you no longer have to know the personal timing of every DPS job, you just need to split them into 3 categories: Early burst (SMN), Steady damage/variable burst (BLM/BRD) and Mid-late burst (SAM), that's why I regard AST as only middling complexity now. But I still vastly prefer AST compared to the other healers in Endwalker because AST at least requires some braincells.

In the end, I do want to see utility returning, but I don't think what we have now is entirely bad if we could get some improvement on it.

A lot of the discussion concerns cards, however that is only part of the reason for the dissatisfaction on my part. I'm not in favour of having 6 different types of cards, because I find it difficult to think of circumstances where most of them would be useful, and even with a redraw, that doesn't sound particularly enjoyable- so I'm more of a middle ground card RNG.

However the other parts concern the removal of the sects and no consideration of adjusting AST by returning some elements of diurnal/nocturnal sects, as well as the poor experience outside of groups.

[ASkellington]

I've had my long rant about AST in the healer section but I may as well put it here.

First thing's first I did not have the enjoyment of playing HW/SB AST and wish I did. The six different effects and learning how and when to use them is probably the funniest thing I've heard as far as a gameplay mechanic goes. And before someone comes in to sway my opinion that Balance was the best and only card I would ever want, no, it wouldn't have been.

There was 0 reason to keep 6 cards in EW/Shb system other than the seals system and both Divination in Shb and Astrodyne in EW are objectively TRASH and deserve to be called out as such. If a melee/range split was "the best" the dev team could be arsed to offer and not even split the damage type into 3 they may as well have dropped it down to 2 cards for all that it REALLY mattered.

With all that said the old card system had its issues. Balance was not (ha) balanced, Spire was worthless, Bole and Ewer weren't consistent enough. And rather than adjust the card effects, the dev team went ahead and chose to replace the flavor of the cards with the seals system.

In theory this would have been fine - all cards are Balance with a split between ranged and melee and the effects of Bole/Ewer/Spire could have been updated and set on the seals with the combination of Lunar/Celestial/Solar giving those effects. Kinda a win win for everyone. Except they screwed up and made it a whopping 1% difference depending on how many different seals you had for Divination which replaced AOE Balance.

GOOD JOB. /s

EW was worse thanks to the 2 min meta they're dead set on so there's even LESS decision making on where you put the card on your party (like the bar was that high, lets be real) with an even shittier seals replacement - Astrodyne. Coupled with the removal of Nocturnal Sect to make way for SGE. They couldn't have even be bothered to split the three cards into 3 differing forms of damage jfc.

And now we have DT's cards which... even I'll admit with tweaks could be "fine":

• Reduce the recast timer to 30s
• Make the "curative" card a Refresh (read MP regen)
• Assuming we draw from two different sets, have both sets do different things underneath "Damage", "Defensive", "Curative" - so one Curative could be MP, another HP; Defensive* could be Reflective damage/Movement speed; and Damage can be split between DHit and Crit/Crit Chance
• Alternatively make Defensive do something else AST has enough shields/mits to work with considering CI has 2 charges (unless they plan on changing it) Neutral Sect and Exaltation
• Make this 60s Draw into Sleeve Draw and reintroduce Draw with these new cards

I don't think I'd be HAPPY exactly with those changes, but they can be made...

But the point is, no one is really getting what they want out of these. People who wanted old cards back wanted the old cards back. They pretty much lost their job for 2 expansions with everyone else telling them to "suck it up, the old cards weren't what you wanted; AST is better this way" and the AST mains coming in from Shb/EW are losing a fast paced APM job.

If there was ever a point where I could say the dev team desperately needs a healer main, this would be it. And Twelve is this but ONE reason out of many.

[ty_taurus]

I don't think I'd be HAPPY exactly with those changes, but they can be made...

I'd like your direct opinion on something as I know you're a lot like my in regards to passion for AST in the way that I am passionate about SGE.

I've said above and elsewhere that I value distinct cards more than RNG, but I don't think the total erasure of RNG is necessary to have what they're basically trying to achieve with this new system. If we added to your suggestions the fact that the order of the cards you draw is random, that they need to be used in that order, and there you have some alternative version of Redraw to reorder your cards with some limitation, how would you feel about that? Better or worse? And if better, how much do you think that improves the situation, if at all?

Because I don't mind having more control over which cards you draw, as that is one of the only ways I can really think to counter the inherent flaw of utility cards which is that you can't plan around them because you'll never now when they arrive. Mitigation, for example, is something you need at a precise moment. It's not something that provides a lot of value at any random moment in a fight. The other way I could think is that cards you draw do not need to be played immediately, and thus drawing cards randomly is effectively enabling certain actions to be used later, and holding onto utility cards does not restrict your ability to draw more cards.

Also, in regards to pre ShB AST... Spire was not the weakest card. In fact, it was actually the strongest card because it was the best card for turning your next card into AOE. Ewer on the other hand wasn't always a guarantee burn card because sometimes you or your co-healer needed that MP refresh. The only problem with Spire was drawing it repeatedly.

[ASkellington]

I'd like your direct opinion on something as I know you're a lot like my in regards to passion for AST in the way that I am passionate about SGE.

I've said above and elsewhere that I value distinct cards more than RNG, but I don't think the total erasure of RNG is necessary to have what they're basically trying to achieve with this new system. If we added to your suggestions the fact that the order of the cards you draw is random, that they need to be used in that order, and there you have some alternative version of Redraw to reorder your cards with some limitation, how would you feel about that? Better or worse? And if better, how much do you think that improves the situation, if at all?

Kinda better? The order of the cards being random would be nice so it isn't the exact same DPS -> Tank -> Healer/W/e but again it would depend on what the card effects are. I don't mind having more control of getting the card you want and reordering the Sleight so you can what you want first fits the theme the AST job quests are going for - the Sleight is the fate you've seen, you can "accept this fate or defy it" but not deny it.

Also, in regards to pre ShB AST... Spire was not the weakest card. In fact, it was actually the strongest card because it was the best card for turning your next card into AOE. Ewer on the other hand wasn't always a guarantee burn card because sometimes you or your co-healer needed that MP refresh. The only problem with Spire was drawing it repeatedly.

I was specifically thinking of Spire's effect of being a TP regen when TP stopped being a thing in the game. Just because it was good RR fodder doesn't justify the card effect itself being useless.

[ty_taurus]

the Sleight is the fate you've seen, you can "accept this fate or defy it" but not deny it.

That's a good pull from the story, and I wonder if that was the approach, if things would be more positive in regards to the systems. But yes it absolutely does depend on what the cards do and how they compare to the rest of your kit. Lady's effect for example feels very redundant and empty. I was actually thinking of a different potential use for her. Given that she's in the utility lineup of cards, I had said before that what I think could be a good balance of effects for them would be something like:

1. A mitigation effect
2. Synastry, but applies to all single target healing actions (and Synastry as a separate actions is removed to make room for this)
3. MP refresh on magical jobs; HP regen on physical jobs

Lady in this case could exist like Enhanced Royal Road was before Shadowbringers--increases the effects of your next support card by 50%.

I was specifically thinking of Spire's effect of being a TP regen when TP stopped being a thing in the game. Just because it was good RR fodder doesn't justify the card effect itself being useless.

I get what you mean, but that's also one of the perks of the original system was that a card was more than just its inherent effect. I think it was a sour spot that certain card effects were virtually never valuable, or the effect was only theoretically valuable but rarely so due to the timing of when its obtained. But at the very least, Royal Road did counteract the issue of balance in most of the cards. The only card that I would say got the short end of the stick both in effect and Royal Road was Bole. The mitigation was powerful, but only really mattered if you pulled it at exactly the right moment, and its Royal Road effect was the weakest of the three.

[Kamishawe]

If there was ever a point where I could say the dev team desperately needs a healer main, this would be it. And Twelve is this but ONE reason out of many.

Fair, no one is happy and the Devs really do need a variety of healer mains on the Brainstorming Appoval Council. Given how spoiled Sage is in skills, abilities, and up coming presents, I think it's safe to say they at least have a Sage floating around. Though, I don't think that's a very good starting point in judging other healers since it most likely was their first Healer.

I think both you and @ty-taurus have a solid point in bringing back an updated version of HW or STB Cards thou I've only maybe 2 weeks on STB cards before they switched to SHB/EW Cards. I personally like Variety AND rng AND apm so I'm in all camps of unhappy, certified crazy and just living with what ever they decide to do. However, I can live better if instead it was interestingly complex.

I agree with their decision to "group" the cards, it'll make them easier to remember. If they DO return the rng, it'll keep the cards to a lower rng percentage rate brackets by being segmented into groups of 2-3 cards by role.

My understanding of your guys conversation is that card-chaining (one card affecting another or completely changing another cards purpose) would be an interesting addition to complexity in place of removing the rng aspect. Alchemy in card form, feel free in correcting me if I miss understood my interpretation of that part.

My take on this could get interesting if you could chain-activate them over longer periods of time. Think Extended Ninja Mudras. I'm not all that familiar with the ones your speaking of so I'm going to try an Example.

Activate a Defense Card as the first card, but I can change it to something else if I activate Heal Card on the same person before Defense ends, reapplying the duration. Technically a 2 part combo? If you activate Card 3 before THAT duration ended, you get a new different affect.

Yes, I think the closest technical equivalent in the game rn, it Ninja Mudras. In a set of three cards you could have 3 solo different cards affects, a combo of w 1 effect and a solo card, or 1 overarching affect if you combine all three. Maybe it's to much atm to think of "almost" every combo variable having a different effect, just like ninja, but it is a thought and a starting point to an interesting concept.

[Kamishawe]

If we added to your suggestions (@AKellington) the fact that the order of the cards you draw is random, that they need to be used in that order, and there you have some alternative version of Redraw to reorder your cards with some limitation, how would you feel about that? Better or worse? And if better, how much do you think that improves the situation, if at all?

Unfortunately, I don't think many people would be happy with the suggestion of Role Order Shuffle? Don't get me wrong! I think it's a good idea, I get where your coming from. Reshuffling the order would at leave give you SOMETHING to do by rethinking the fight applications with every "re-shuffle". Unfortunately, it's not your suggestion that's the problem, i think. A slower pace gives you WAY to much time to play out where to place 3 cards + Crown. I believe they said the CD was 60s a Draw for 4 cards? Correct me if I'm wrong, 4 cards a minute is the slowest it's EVER been, right? Even compared to HW? You'd have to rethink the Draw Timer to 30s or 40s if you really want to make the Current Card Suggestion viable to anything as subtle as Order Reshuffle. Not that their current freedom of choice is any better, imo. I think the name of DT Astro is "How do I find ways to kill time this Instance?"

[LuciaMirain]

As someone who loved Stormblood AST and was gutted when they changed it I am honestly a bit excited about these changes. Granted, it isnt like Stormblood AST but my annoyance with EW AST was that it was just too busy. It was either "braindead" WHM or "speedy gonzales" EW I had as a choice. And sure, I will admit *I am just not fast enough or have the brainpower enough to handle AST in its current form, I am old and tired and I* do look forward to not having to through out several cards during bursts while keeping track of astrodyne and so on. I like what Kamishawe is suggesting, that the cards affect eachother, it would be a minigame in itself, like StB AST was.