its not about whether SMN has Resurrection or not

[Ianmaru]

Well, if you want to healers have superior Raise, then focus on improving their Raise, not nerfing others. It is a lose-lose situation that way - nothing changed for healers, while SMN and RDM suddenly have to suffer for some reason. I'm sorry, I'm not going to give half of my MP to rez some flop. Out of all the thoughts presented here, the only one that makes sense is to make the healer Raise to recover more HP. Full heal is a little too much, but going for 50-70% is fine.

IMO, instead of arguing about whether or not devs should delete Raise from SMN and RDM, people should advocate for devs to stop treating Raise as something that needs taxing. That, or either start making high-end fights where having extra rez matters. Cause let me tell you something, not just extra rez, any rez doesn't matter. Most of the fights are designed in such a way that someone dying leads to a wipe. Either a mechanic needs to have all 8 people to solve it, or there is a body check right after. The only content that will suffer from nerfes/removal of SMN and RDM Raise is casual content. Dunno how about you all, I'm glad that instead of resetting some Trial rou fight we had a RDM to chain rez half of the party.

yeah honestly theres a big problem with the healing & healer in this game. before they can fix it, a secondary problem that comes along with it (such as how whether SMN having a raise or not is a problem now) will always be there. and I agree with you on prioritizing improving healers raise over nerfing the caster raise. Improving healers raise is a must, while nerfing caster raise is optional.

[Nero-Voidstails]

I do see some value in this line of thinking. I would not be opposed to healers getting better rezzes. For example, it seems just busy work to fill up an HP bar after rezzing. Wouldn't be the worst thing if a healer or all of them rezzed to full HP.

I think a more fun option would be to give them different heal bonuses to rezzing. SGE grants a bulky shield after rezzing. SCH grants regen after rezzing. WHM rezzes to full.

And AST can just jump ahead in time to clearing the boss because I guess RNG and challenge doesn't matter to that job anymore.

I like that idea like maybe giving astro and whm Rez a Regen on spawning like a 500 during the invul so for like two tick for a total of a 1000 in 4, second and sch and sage could give a shield on Rez with a bruh heal of 300 and a shield of double the heals

[NobleWinter]

I'm all for giving Healers a better way to revive fallen teammates but it sounds awful to nerf the ability for SMN and RDM to revive with long cool downs. Healers could have a role skill called Esunaga with a long cool down or long cast time that removes weakness to make them more useful. Healers could also get a preemptive Reraise Ability that allows them to target a person who will die in the next ten seconds and raise them immediately upon KO. The fact the skill would have to be timed well and still result in weakness means no one would want to die but it saves Swiftcast and MP. Healers could also have a trait that boost their personal power temporarily for each raise meaning their DPS actually increases and makes them the priority for saving people. Being a healer with Reraise means you could save yourself from death as well. It would be such a fun role skill.

[Ianmaru]

Without the res, what reason will there be to pick a Red Mage or a Summoner instead of a Black Mage (or Pictomancer)?

when you say 'pick', you mean as in pick them as a job to play, or as a party member?

if its the former: why do some ppl play dnc, some play brd, some play mch on ranged role? like, none of them has raise, but all of them have players. mch is the hardest hitting ranged, dnc & brd have no raise but ppl still pick them. see? the fact is, 'raise' is not the only reason ppl pick a job to play. every job has a different playstyle, aesthetics, identity, etc. if they have no raise, ppl will still pick them because of their unique playstyles/aesthetics/identities.

if its the latter: again, non mch ranged and non sam melee are still picked anyway as party members even though they dont have raise. so why would ppl refuse to recruit rdm & smn simply because they have no raise? makes no sense.

[Supersnow845]

when you say 'pick', you mean as in pick them as a job to play, or as a party member?

if its the former: why do some ppl play dnc, some play brd, some play mch on ranged role? like, none of them has raise, but all of them have players. mch is the hardest hitting ranged, dnc & brd have no raise but ppl still pick them. see? the fact is, 'raise' is not the only reason ppl pick a job to play. every job has a different playstyle, aesthetics, identity, etc. if they have no raise, ppl will still pick them because of their unique playstyles/aesthetics/identities.

if its the latter: again, non mch ranged and non sam melee are still picked anyway as party members even though they dont have raise. so why would ppl refuse to recruit rdm & smn simply because they have no raise? makes no sense.

The casters do have the unique problem that you are only “supposed” to bring 1 of them BLM (and probably PIC) do so much more damage than RDM/SMN what are they really doing if they don’t have a rezz

Like MCH vs DNC/BRD is a tiny difference and they bring decently similar utility

The casters are uniquely hampered by how unbalanced they are because of how taxed rezz is but even without it buffing damage is messy because of how god damn easy SMN is

[Lyth]

I know that people get into competitions over mass raises in some types of casual content (Bozja is a classic example, with RDM being the clear winner there), but I'd be surprised if this was peak Healer gameplay. I think the primary issue is in what it does to the Caster role.

The issue around Caster raises occurs in raid content. It splits the Caster role into two sub-subcategories competing for the same slot. You should know how to play a prog Caster to provide raises, but you should also be able to swap out to a higher damage Caster in the event that it's a tight enrage. Nobody else has this requirement. This might partially be alleviated if stat bonuses were based off of taking any two ranged jobs, rather than having dedicated physical and magical slots, but that might be a controversial change.

It also pushes fight design towards strict attendance checks instead of attrition, because the only way that the designers can cause a raidwipe is by killing everyone at once.

I think the longer term solution is going to be to make Raise more universal but limit its number of uses on a fight-specific basis. You could turn Potion and Phoenix Down into General Actions with fixed cooldowns (same category as Sprint and Limit Break) and give each player a fixed number of uses per fight that varies based on fight difficulty. You could also remove those cooldowns out of combat out in the field.

For example, perhaps you queue for a Normal mode fight and everyone has unlimited uses, gated by a recast timer (let's say 5+ minutes). The equivalent Savage fight perhaps gives you 2-3 uses total, to be shared by the entire team, with the recast timer still present. Then it really doesn't matter from a party composition perspective who has Raise and who doesn't, because there is a fight-specific restriction on the number of times it can occur in total.

[Ianmaru]

The casters do have the unique problem that you are only “supposed” to bring 1 of them BLM (and probably PIC) do so much more damage than RDM/SMN what are they really doing if they don’t have a rezz

Like MCH vs DNC/BRD is a tiny difference and they bring decently similar utility

The casters are uniquely hampered by how unbalanced they are because of how taxed rezz is but even without it buffing damage is messy because of how god damn easy SMN is

correct. all of it. it should have gone without saying that when RDM & SMN get their rezz nerfed, their rezz tax also gets smaller which means their dps output gets buffed. but apparently ppl forget its a thing and thinking that if they lose the raise, they dont get anything in return.

and dont get me started on how broken the current SMN is. we cant have a good caster DPS output balance as long as one of the job is significantly easier than the other two.

[Supersnow845]

The change is an EW change that didn’t need to happen

The double melee shouldn’t need to be enforced. Especially with pictomancer coming there should be zero reason why you shouldn’t be able to run double caster

The damage should be balanced around 2 high damage deals (the melees and the non raise casters) and 2 support damage dealers (the prog casters and the physical ranged) (I’m not going to discuss why they won’t give high damage to a rDPS class it isn’t really the point of this discussion but it does annoy me)

So you can run 2/1/1 or 1/2/1 based on if you want to run 2 melee and a prog caster or 1 melee a prog caster and a high damage caster

This shouldn’t be a hard and fast system but they made this problem by pushing the casters into 1 slot because of the damage dominance of the melee when there really isn’t a need for the dominance of the melee

[Lyth]

They should also stop enforcing double healer. That way you can have two slots to run damage tanks like DRK/GNB, and one extra slot to run a healer tank like PLD/WAR.

Actually, maybe that's another way you can get a second caster. Just replace a healer with a support caster.

[Emitans]

Honestly I've always found Square trying to micromanage player's damage comps really restrictive for no real reason. My other MMO is Guild Wars 2 and the thought of turning a DPS away because we already have one of that type (class or subrole) really weird. Deciding that melee DPS get to be better than the other DPS "just because" is silly.