Making jobs simpler is a mistake, let players fail.

[helloitme]

Endwalker and shadowbringers both made the mistake of simplifying jobs too much. Stormblood was the perfect middle ground, where jobs had a lot of room for thought and optimization, but they were still relatively straightforward for people who didn't care to push a job to its limits. In SHB and EW, they took away the ability for us to make mistakes. They took away the thought that went into optimizing jobs in specific fights. They took away our ability to squeeze in extra damage by choosing when to dump our resources depending on the fight and party composition, and in doing all of these things, they also took away the fun.

I understand that different people have fun with different things, that's no problem at all. However, i take issue with the dev's apparent thought process that they need to remove the ability to fail or not fully understand a job's toolkit in order to retain the casual playerbase. Even back in HW when jobs were largely at their hardest. There were still a ton of casual players who happily played despite not fully understanding how their jobs worked. And that's okay! It's totally fine to not worry about the ins and outs of your chosen job if that's not part of what you enjoy about the game. That's ultimately the crux of the issue, i believe. They keep simplifying jobs, whether hoping to keep the casual playerbase happy, or in order to try to entice them to raid. But they enjoyed the game back in HW when they were at their hardest, and no matter how easy the jobs become, people who don't want to raid simply won't. And why should they? There's plenty else in the game that people enjoy that isn't battle content, and there's nothing wrong with anybody not wanting to raid.

All the simplifying of jobs is doing is taking the fun away from the people who do enjoy that aspect. It doesn't matter what the raids are like in DT, if the jobs are too simple, they won't be as enjoyable for a lot of the targeted players.

[GoatOfWar]

Endwalker and shadowbringers both made the mistake of simplifying jobs too much. Stormblood was the perfect middle ground, where jobs had a lot of room for thought and optimization, but they were still relatively straightforward for people who didn't care to push a job to its limits. In SHB and EW, they took away the ability for us to make mistakes. They took away the thought that went into optimizing jobs in specific fights. They took away our ability to squeeze in extra damage by choosing when to dump our resources depending on the fight and party composition, and in doing all of these things, they also took away the fun.

I understand that different people have fun with different things, that's no problem at all. However, i take issue with the dev's apparent thought process that they need to remove the ability to fail or not fully understand a job's toolkit in order to retain the casual playerbase. Even back in HW when jobs were largely at their hardest. There were still a ton of casual players who happily played despite not fully understanding how their jobs worked. And that's okay! It's totally fine to not worry about the ins and outs of your chosen job if that's not part of what you enjoy about the game. That's ultimately the crux of the issue, i believe. They keep simplifying jobs, whether hoping to keep the casual playerbase happy, or in order to try to entice them to raid. But they enjoyed the game back in HW when they were at their hardest, and no matter how easy the jobs become, people who don't want to raid simply won't. And why should they? There's plenty else in the game that people enjoy that isn't battle content, and there's nothing wrong with anybody not wanting to raid.

All the simplifying of jobs is doing is taking the fun away from the people who do enjoy that aspect. It doesn't matter what the raids are like in DT, if the jobs are too simple, they won't be as enjoyable for a lot of the targeted players.

They don't want there to be mastery in job designs.
They want every player to be equal, they only care about fight design now.
I bet they would have loved to further simplify jobs but they prefer doing it inch by inch so people won't complain too much.
The game has no long form content, and they don't want you to be able to squeeze more out of your jobs than other players. So they simplify jobs.
I think they're just fully embracing the seasonal nature of the game. If EW was the stagnation point of 14, i think DT will be the start of it's decline.

[Sqwall]

They don't want there to be mastery in job designs.
They want every player to be equal, they only care about fight design now.
I bet they would have loved to further simplify jobs but they prefer doing it inch by inch so people won't complain too much.
The game has no long form content, and they don't want you to be able to squeeze more out of your jobs than other players.
I think they're just fully embracing the seasonal nature of the game. If EW was the stagnation point of 14, i think DT will be the start of it's decline.

Yoshi P doesn't want a meta comp. He want's every job to bring something to the table at high end content. Play what you want....not what you can offer.

I have played many MMO's that have always asked me to play a specific role...with specific gear....and specific DPS number. These MMO's treated their endgame content as exclusive content to a set of particular players that enjoyed playing a particular role that the raid leader or guild asked of them. No amount of "Hey I like hunter...can I bring my hunter?" "No we need a frost spec mage with X amount of DPS....go make a mage and then maybe we'll talk"

FFXIV isn't like that....you choose a job you like weather from it's visual aesthetic...it's lore...or it's job fantasy that it offers. Most of the jobs have a baked in difficulty and some are more distinguishable then others. BLM comes to mind as a job that requires incredible amounts of fight knowledge to truly make it shine. While SMN has some of that but to much lesser extent save maybe Ifrit casts

This is what Yoshi P is working so damn hard to combat. Because having a meta comp sucks.

The idea that the skill issue needs to be separated between those that can...and those that can't is just silly. Anybody can become a savage/ultimate raider if they put in the time and effort...and that's the point. Nothing is exclusive in this game. I like that I can play any tank I want...and still complete content...i'm not locked to one specific role.

This game is so easy as far as learning a job and playing it somewhat competently. It just takes time and practice. That is the minimum ask....push buttons...and you can complete dungeons. The savage and ultimate ask is much more demanding as the game asks you to know your rotation forwards and backwards...while doing complex mechanics quickly and understanding how you can perfect your rotation.

I mean...what more do you really want from a job design aspect? Nearly every job is viable at high level and bring what is needed for success. If those players put in the work to learn the job, and the mechanics...isn't that kinda the point?

You say it's simplification...I call it refinement.

[GoatOfWar]

Yoshi P doesn't want a meta comp. He want's every job to bring something to the table at high end content. Play what you want....not what you can offer.

I have played many MMO's that have always asked me to play a specific role...with specific gear....and specific DPS number. These MMO's treated their endgame content as exclusive content to a set of particular players that enjoyed playing a particular role that the raid leader or guild asked of them. No amount of "Hey I like hunter...can I bring my hunter?" "No we need a frost spec mage with X amount of DPS....go make a mage and then maybe we'll talk"

FFXIV isn't like that....you choose a job you like weather from it's visual aesthetic...it's lore...or it's job fantasy that it offers. Most of the jobs have a baked in difficulty and some are more distinguishable then others. BLM comes to mind as a job that requires incredible amounts of fight knowledge to truly make it shine. While SMN has some of that but to much lesser extent save maybe Ifrit casts

This is what Yoshi P is working so damn hard to combat. Because having a meta comp sucks.

The idea that the skill issue needs to be separated between those that can...and those that can't is just silly. Anybody can become a savage/ultimate raider if they put in the time and effort...and that's the point. Nothing is exclusive in this game. I like that I can play any tank I want...and still complete content...i'm not locked to one specific role.

This game is so easy as far as learning a job and playing it somewhat competently. It just takes time and practice. That is the minimum ask....push buttons...and you can complete dungeons. The savage and ultimate ask is much more demanding as the game asks you to know your rotation forwards and backwards...while doing complex mechanics quickly and understanding how you can perfect your rotation.

I mean...what more do you really want from a job design aspect? Nearly every job is viable at high level and bring what is needed for success. If those players put in the work to learn the job, and the mechanics...isn't that kinda the point?

You say it's simplification...I call it refinement.

Refined gameplay is not mashing 1 button for a full minute.

[Sqwall]

Refined gameplay is not mashing 1 button for a full minute.

Again...I don't play healer....

I agree with this.

[GoatOfWar]

Again...I don't play healer....

I agree with this.

That's what they're doing to Drk.

[Supersnow845]

Again...I don't play healer....

I agree with this.

Your argument rings a bit hollow when it basically amounts to “I’m willing to sacrifice healers at the alter of balance as long as it means my role; which is not healer; is balanced enough that the job I like is never not viable

Square enix has shown in the last 3 expansions they can’t balance anything unless they make every job play exactly the same and EW over ShB showed that homogenising the jobs even further around the 2 minute window ironically made the balance worse compared to ShB, considering every job except PIC basically got “1 more finisher in the burst window” this is liable to become even worse

In the “balance vs homogenisation” argument we are losing on both fronts

[ZiraZ]

I'm still waiting for fight designs to get better, when is that gonna happen? 8.0 too?

[Aravell]

There's honestly nothing wrong with having simple jobs, where the design fails is that there's no ceiling, the ceiling has fallen into the floor. A simple entry point with a high ceiling serves the most amount of people.

While I get that different people like different things, what SE has done here is fully cater to one side while not leaving anything for the other side to like, thus alienating the people who wish for a challenge. (No, saying go play ultimate is not a valid argument)

Ultimately, the casuals will be fine. They survived HW, they can survive SB design coming back again.

[CKNovel]

There's honestly nothing wrong with having simple jobs, where the design fails is that there's no ceiling, the ceiling has fallen into the floor. A simple entry point with a high ceiling serves the most amount of people.

While I get that different people like different things, what SE has done here is fully cater to one side while not leaving anything for the other side to like, thus alienating the people who wish for a challenge. (No, saying go play ultimate is not a valid argument)

Ultimately, the casuals will be fine. They survived HW, they can survive SB design coming back again.

Lots of hardcore and casuals alike still play SMN despite the job being known as "braindead".
Lots of people plays WAR and find the job fine.

I join you there, I don't think it will affect anyone.

Plus, I find it funny that some casuals complain about jobs being too simple while they never tried any content that actually needs you to master your job and know how to optimize.
My point isn't that casuals intake shouldn't be taken in account, someone who claims "cooking is simple" as they only boil pasta should go beyond their comfort zone before complaining about cooking being too simple.