Combat system is beyond saving.

[Kikoten]

Admittably, I agree with one thing: I do miss the days of actually having to use my brain, at least a little bit, as a healer. Cleric Stance was pretty cool with the whole swapping MND and INT so the healer could manually shift into and out of DPS mode. At the same time, though, it's difficult for me to complain with not having to worry about Cleric Stance--I'm lock into both healing mode AND DPS mode, so I can DPS quicker and then more quickly switch back to healing.

In hindsight, I kind of liked when sprint drained TP to 0. It put a check on people sprinting ahead of me [ the healer ]. That shit got annoying so fast when sprint stopped affecting TP and people just did it willy nilly.

Tank stances were interesting. Someone tried to tell me to tank without a tank stance, so I could maximize on DPS. I tried that one time. One time was all it took for me to realize that that was the worst advice I'd ever received. It nearly caused my party to wipe. STILL! The fact that that nuance existed was nice. It brings to mind a certain Titan trial (before HW launch). We were too slow with damage, so what'd the tank do? Turned off tank stance so he could add DPS. I ended up healer-tanking that fight, and that was what got us through it. While I can't complain about tank stance no longer reducing damage output in favor of increasing defense, those were some pretty rad times back then. It actually took a bit of thinking.

I'm not personally too torn up about how things are now, compared to back then. Not yet, at least.

[xivYuiM]

The thing with stuff like cleric stance is, it was optional. If you were doing any content that was the "normal difficulty" of the time then there was nobody forcing you to use it. If you were worried about activating it and then getting caught unable to heal enough then simply don't use it! It was a brilliant way for people who spent the time to learn the limits of their job to take the risk of turning it on to squeeze out extra damage when they could and, if done appropriately, they would be rewarded for doing so. There is nothing even close to that in the game the way it is today.

[ty_taurus]

What has made FFXIV more popular has been its story and the different types of content that have been added since then. If job design had stayed the same since Heavensward, the game would still be as popular, and the casual audience would not be batting an eye. Heavensward was not perfect, and there are changes that have been better for the game since then, but the general level of complexity was not inherently a problem in need of fixing.

This current obsession with sanding down every edge in the effort to create the perfect smoothness will leave us with nothing in the end. And it’s not even meant to make the game easier for the casual player. All these changes aim to achieve is to make hard content easier for mid core players to clear faster.

[TaleraRistain]

The thing with stuff like cleric stance is, it was optional. If you were doing any content that was the "normal difficulty" of the time then there was nobody forcing you to use it. If you were worried about activating it and then getting caught unable to heal enough then simply don't use it! It was a brilliant way for people who spent the time to learn the limits of their job to take the risk of turning it on to squeeze out extra damage when they could and, if done appropriately, they would be rewarded for doing so. There is nothing even close to that in the game the way it is today.

No it absolutely was not. There was a huge amount of community pressure to use cleric stance in dungeons. This whole idea now where people get mad when healers don't dps in dungeons? Happened back then, too. Healers have never be allowed to just focus on their given role.

[Rekh]

No it absolutely was not. There was a huge amount of community pressure to use cleric stance in dungeons. This whole idea now where people get mad when healers don't dps in dungeons? Happened back then, too. Healers have never be allowed to just focus on their given role.

Thank you. I vividly remember the community divide between those who refused to stance dance and those who did not.

[xivYuiM]

No it absolutely was not. There was a huge amount of community pressure to use cleric stance in dungeons. This whole idea now where people get mad when healers don't dps in dungeons? Happened back then, too. Healers have never be allowed to just focus on their given role.

Uhhh, a massive part of the reason that people get mad about healers not doing DPS in dungeons TODAY is because what the hell are they going to do otherwise? Every tank is so powerful now that with a few notable exceptions (some dungeons with DRK) healers are genuinely not needed. The other three tanks do not require healing to complete any of the max level dungeons in EW and to say otherwise is just lying. If healers don't need to heal then they might as well do DPS. In HW if you pulled wall to wall the healers needed to be doing a lot of healing or the tank would die in an instant.

[Zarkovitch]

3.0 WAR was the most unbalance tank ever. They have to restrict LB due how broken the job is. If y all thought WAR EW was OP, It's nothing compare to 3.0 WAR. Butcher block was the strongest combo and the best aggroing, Old strom path 10% mitigation 24/7, storm eye is must for your co-tank and your ninja. Unchained free 20 seconds of to do whatever without no penality from the tank stance. Offensive stance give crit %. Equilibrium give health on tank stance and 200 TP damage stance, meanwhile the other tanks have nothing like equilibrium. Holmgang was still the best invul in game due is short cd and no worry for heal equilibrium carries for the healing department back in days. awerness plus raw intuation easiest combo of soaking so much dmg, it make sheltron garbage compare to that. WAR 3.0 was such a must you trolling if you dont have one in raid.

[xivYuiM]

Do you truly remember Heavensward?

RNG mitigation (parry). Job mechanics built upon the concept of parrying when bosses weren't doing physical damage? Combos breaking due to lack of Accuracy? Janky and redundant abilities, such as attacks you can only use when the boss is at 20% HP, Fluid Aura, Featherfoot and Keen Flurry? No magic mitigation or AoE on PLD? Materia for elemental stats? Bowmage? Vitality vs Strength fight with the devs on tanks?

I don't think that every aspect of heavensward was completely flawless. I do think it was preferable to the state of the game since then though. Of course some things you mention were positive changes like bowmage or no PLD aoe.

I agree that it was more fun to "do well" in dungeons then than it is now, because it shows more if there is a bigger gap between the skill floor and ceiling.

Understatement of the century. I would go so far as to say that the skill gap is nonexistent short of someone deliberately not playing correctly like completely ignoring aoe attacks or doing zero cooldowns as a tank. It is basically impossible to accidentally play "wrong" now and as long as you manage to avoid doing that then all players (in equal gear) are basically identical.

a big part of it was a knowledge gap - casual players not knowing the hundreds of different nuances and min-max stuff about this large game.

Filling that knowledge gap (for me and many other players) was the most fun part of the experience back then. Becoming aware of how little I knew and how much room for improvement there was was very motivating and ultimately very satisfying when I felt I had reached mastery of a given job. Also each job was so different that it was always exciting to pick up a new one and go on the same journey again.

Aggro management wasn't really a thing honestly. You turned on your tank stance, grabbed aggro, then after enough hits you didn't even need stance anymore so you could DPS. And if you stayed in your stance the entire time, you had aggro for sure. Is that description of it much different now?

This was almost true for standard raids/trails but aggro management was a big deal in dungeons or any content that needed AoE damage.

TP was pointless and redundant, mostly unnoticeable unless DPS was low.

Again, perhaps true for raids but in dungeons managing it was important.

[ReynTime]

The thing with stuff like cleric stance is, it was optional. If you were doing any content that was the "normal difficulty" of the time then there was nobody forcing you to use it. If you were worried about activating it and then getting caught unable to heal enough then simply don't use it! It was a brilliant way for people who spent the time to learn the limits of their job to take the risk of turning it on to squeeze out extra damage when they could and, if done appropriately, they would be rewarded for doing so. There is nothing even close to that in the game the way it is today.

"Risk" is the keyword here.

With the way FF XIV is designed the potential to go beyond the "good enough" output of your rotation is the only type of "risk vs reward" that existed and involved player expression.

There is no player expression at all now. Mouth breathers probably think "player expression" is limited to how they dress up their catgirls and bunny boys though, so they're fine with that.
And yes I do miss cleric stance, TP costs and definitely miss enmity management. Enmity management alone made fights more than just a focus on maintaining the highest possible dps and memorizing mechanics timing, not to mention it made dungeon trash mob a lot more fun than the brain rotting garbage it is now.

People who keep advocating for less interactions with the combat should quite frankly shut the hell up and stick with their trash housing, gposing, limsa afking and lifestyle shit. The XIV casual community really loves to deprive people who like to engage with PvE content just because they personally would gladly spend no more than 5 minutes getting all that done so they focus on their second life FF edition.

[xivYuiM]

"Risk" is the keyword here.

With the way FF XIV is designed the potential to go beyond the "good enough" output of your rotation is the only type of "risk vs reward" that existed and involved player expression.

There is no player expression at all now. Mouth breathers probably think "player expression" is limited to how they dress up their catgirls and bunny boys though, so they're fine with that.
And yes I do miss cleric stance, TP costs and definitely miss enmity management. Enmity management alone made fights more than just a focus on maintaining the highest possible dps and memorizing mechanics timing, not to mention it made dungeon trash mob a lot more fun than the brain rotting garbage it is now.

People who keep advocating for less interactions with the combat should quite frankly shut the hell up and stick with their trash housing, gposing, limsa afking and lifestyle shit. The XIV casual community really loves to deprive people who like to engage with PvE content just because they personally would gladly spend no more than 5 minutes getting all that done so they focus on their second life FF edition.

Spot on. I couldn't have said it better myself.