Thread: Please reconsider 7.0 BLM changes

The more I think about BLM changes, the more I find these choices weird and strange.

Flare Star - the more I think about the whole Astral Heart thing, the more it gets weird, cause why it is for the Fire phase? Blizzard 4 gives Umbral Hearts to use in the Fire phase, so it's logical for Astral Hearts to affect the ice phase instead. So Flare Star should've been Ice Age or Absolute Zero and be a very powerful Ice nuke, stronger than anything in Fire phase with AF3 bonuses combined. Instead, there are bigger emphasis on Fire yet again.

Thunderhead - is weird. Flat 200p with a DoT, you get it once when you shift between stances. And with that potency, it feels like using it for anything but reapplying the DoT is a waste. The upfront attack is weaker than the current Thundercloud proc. Even Thundercloud proc had a slight potency loss compared to Fire IV. And new thing is even worse, it lost damage, and you lost the opportunity to use several in a sequence for movement with some Sharpcasts. If they want to leave the whole mechanic as it is, then at least bring up the upfront damage to Thundercloud/Fire IV level (you can use it once per phase anyway, unless you Manafont).

Paradox - just bring the Ice Paradox back. The whole thing about this spell is that it's a dual spell using two opposing powers at once. It was a movement tool + a strong button to press during Ice. I think the 1 GCD of movement is a strong enough reason for this button to exist. They can go further and also make it stronger + count as an Ice spell and recover MP.

Hey at least there's 3 other casters to play!
Red Mage, Pictomancer and Samurai.

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I won't be mad if non std makes a return, but I don't think it is good for the job to have the intended gameplay loop be incapable of handling certain situations and being excused with, "play non standard". I also understand not all non std required a tick timer, but encouraging in any way third party to play to peak potential on a job is terrible and should stay gone.

I really think a lot of people really don't get non-standard. It's just adjusting the standard rotation to fit a fight better, things like not using ice 4 because you know the boss will stop being targetable soon so there's no point in having 3 UH and it's better to just replace it with an extra fire 4.
The whole mana tick things is not a non-standard thing it's a speed runner/parser thing.
I'm pretty sure most standard rotation players have unintentionally done their own non-standard plays by just changing the rotation to fit a fight better, every time you use a firestarter fire 3 for movement you did a non-standard action.

Originally Posted by Ramiee

I really think a lot of people really don't get non-standard. It's just adjusting the standard rotation to fit a fight better, things like not using ice 4 because you know the boss will stop being targetable soon so there's no point in having 3 UH and it's better to just replace it with an extra fire 4.
The whole mana tick things is not a non-standard thing it's a speed runner/parser thing.
I'm pretty sure most standard rotation players have unintentionally done their own non-standard plays by just changing the rotation to fit a fight better, every time you use a firestarter fire 3 for movement you did a non-standard action.

The problem with nonstandard is it's an abuse of class design. And remember, there's nonstandard from a boss jumping and you want to do as much damage as you can (which every class does,) and nonstandard where even normal play is nonstandard, which is exactly what BLM does. Nonstandard didn't exist in SB except for boss optimizations and was barely a whisper for most of ShB. Then EW came in and nonstandard became mandatory. Classes that can't handle content get adjustments, but classes that are 'fine' don't get adjustments. Nonstandard isn't quite 11 wyrmwaves or HW SMN levels of nonsense, but at the end of the day it's bad for a class to be played in a way other than how it was intended, especially when this method causes other people who don't know about nonstandard to suffer.

Which is exactly what happened. How many people have said you can't do TOP without nonstandard? How many recommend it for DSR for later phases especially? How can devs make adjustments the class needs when they see the playerbase handling the issue to the point where they can't even tell the core class has serious issues?

Hell, I can guarantee that manafont is failing the sniff test. It is going to require immediate adjustments for lack of overcap protection and its strict location of use. If nonstandard exists and finds a way to mask this issue, it will never get fixed. Likewise, why should monk and summoner not be allowed nonstandard, but BLM should?

What's worse is, if anyone truly stopped for half a second and looked at the class, I mean truly analyzed every single ability, the class is an absolute mess of design based around the oldest class mechanic still left in the game and the original structure it had in ARR, and everything else is slaved to it. Even nonstandard is. This wouldn't even be a problem if the devs seriously modernized the class, which they're still not doing despite fixing the tic issue.

I fully expect BLM to be in a worse state going into DT, but not because nonstandard is being removed. Because the game has moved on without BLM, but the devs are oblivious to just how far removed it is. I've commented that LL is probably going to become 15 yalms or so like pict's 'ley lines' specifically because the devs aren't designing the game out of any one class, and BLM will still require special attention, meaning even a mere one replace isn't going to be good enough.

But hopefully at the end of the road, the class will be fixed and brought to a better place because the devs finally deal with its core design problems that are as old as the relaunch of the game. And then maybe, the class will be more than just a glorified fire wizard that lightly dabbles in thunder and ice. Because I'd like more of the other elements as well, but they can barely exist within the tyranny of the timers.

Originally Posted by Taranok

The problem with nonstandard is it's an abuse of class design. And remember, there's nonstandard from a boss jumping and you want to do as much damage as you can (which every class does,) and nonstandard where even normal play is nonstandard, which is exactly what BLM does. Nonstandard didn't exist in SB except for boss optimizations and was barely a whisper for most of ShB. Then EW came in and nonstandard became mandatory. Classes that can't handle content get adjustments, but classes that are 'fine' don't get adjustments. Nonstandard isn't quite 11 wyrmwaves or HW SMN levels of nonsense, but at the end of the day it's bad for a class to be played in a way other than how it was intended, especially when this method causes other people who don't know about nonstandard to suffer.

Which is exactly what happened. How many people have said you can't do TOP without nonstandard? How many recommend it for DSR for later phases especially? How can devs make adjustments the class needs when they see the playerbase handling the issue to the point where they can't even tell the core class has serious issues?

Non-standard existed as long as Black Mage existed. Even in StB there were lines where you skipped Blizzard IV and opted for shorter Fire lines on occasion, especially pre-Blizzard IV buff. ShB with instantcast xenoglossy and Despair also had Blizzard IV skip for the 3-4 Fire iV -> Despair lines. The goal is the same as standard - maximizing Fire IVs, but in a more compact window. Endwalker simply expanded on it with Paradox - essentially a beefed up Blizzard I in Umbral Ice and a juicier Firestarter enabler in Astral Fire. If anything, current Black Mage, minus perhaps MP regeneration (debatable on who you ask), is currently the most well designed version for both the average person wanting to learn the job and wanting to optimize it.

However, as I need to repeat along with the others for the xth time because players including yourself seem to not understand this - it's called non-standard for a reason. If non-standard was actually mandatory, it would be called STANDARD. The fact it is called non-standard should heavily imply that it is an OPTION, not a must and the difference between standard and non-standard is miniscule and basically just a point of optimisation and, as others pointed out, aligning things better in specific phases and cooldowns, not just in ultimates mind you.

Calling the shortening of Fire lines to align cooldowns and aspect shifts better to the flow of a fight an abuse of class design is just incredibly short-sighted; the fact that Black Mage is so free flowing and allows for this is what makes it a BETTER designed job rather than being the 11th dps with a strict rotational gameplan with minimal deviation. Players should be rewarded for creativity in using their kit, not be punished and have their options ripped out for doing something else.

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Non-standard existed as long as Black Mage existed. Even in StB there were lines where you skipped Blizzard IV and opted for shorter Fire lines on occasion, especially pre-Blizzard IV buff. ShB with instantcast xenoglossy and Despair also had Blizzard IV skip for the 3-4 Fire iV -> Despair lines. The goal is the same as standard - maximizing Fire IVs, but in a more compact window. Endwalker simply expanded on it with Paradox - essentially a beefed up Blizzard I in Umbral Ice and a juicier Firestarter enabler in Astral Fire. If anything, current Black Mage, minus perhaps MP regeneration (debatable on who you ask), is currently the most well designed version for both the average person wanting to learn the job and wanting to optimize it.

However, as I need to repeat along with the others for the xth time because players including yourself seem to not understand this - it's called non-standard for a reason. If non-standard was actually mandatory, it would be called STANDARD. The fact it is called non-standard should heavily imply that it is an OPTION, not a must and the difference between standard and non-standard is miniscule and basically just a point of optimisation and, as others pointed out, aligning things better in specific phases and cooldowns, not just in ultimates mind you.

Calling the shortening of Fire lines to align cooldowns and aspect shifts better to the flow of a fight an abuse of class design is just incredibly short-sighted; the fact that Black Mage is so free flowing and allows for this is what makes it a BETTER designed job rather than being the 11th dps with a strict rotational gameplan with minimal deviation. Players should be rewarded for creativity in using their kit, not be punished and have their options ripped out for doing something else.

The irony is other posters saying good luck doing x or y mechanic without non standard so.. you guys need to agree on how non mandatory it is or not. The intended design and gameplay of the job being incapable of handling such situations is a bad thing, I don't think it meant non std had to die but std had to be adjusted and if it means non std changes with it then fine imo. Why would you hamstring a job for the 1% of players who use that playstyle? BLM is not getting much consideration when they are making the fights but they obviously realise how it is now is not acceptable.

Y'all need to make up your minds if non std is mandatory or not cause you all contradict each other. If the content needs non std to complete x mechanic then guess what it's mandatory.

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The irony is other posters saying good luck doing x or y mechanic without non standard so.. you guys need to agree on how non mandatory it is or not. The intended design and gameplay of the job being incapable of handling such situations is a bad thing, I don't think it meant non std had to die but std had to be adjusted and if it means non std changes with it then fine imo. Why would you hamstring a job for the 1% of players who use that playstyle? BLM is not getting much consideration when they are making the fights but they obviously realise how it is now is not acceptable.

Y'all need to make up your minds if non std is mandatory or not cause you all contradict each other. If the content needs non std to complete x mechanic then guess what it's mandatory.

Almost no one said standard didn't need improvement but not at the price of flexibility. That's what makes us annoyed. Why does it have to be everything or nothing in all these discussion?
Just make it so all spells give mana in ice phase and both sides would have been happy for the mana regeneration change.

This is just regarding the mana and standard / nonstandard stuff.
Of course everyone also has different opinions on the thunder stuff and the new fire finisher.

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The irony is other posters saying good luck doing x or y mechanic without non standard so.. you guys need to agree on how non mandatory it is or not. The intended design and gameplay of the job being incapable of handling such situations is a bad thing, I don't think it meant non std had to die but std had to be adjusted and if it means non std changes with it then fine imo. Why would you hamstring a job for the 1% of players who use that playstyle? BLM is not getting much consideration when they are making the fights but they obviously realise how it is now is not acceptable.

Y'all need to make up your minds if non std is mandatory or not cause you all contradict each other. If the content needs non std to complete x mechanic then guess what it's mandatory.

Two feelings are being conflated in many posts: what feels good to play and what is required to play.
For the almost entirety of the game, non-standard is not mandatory. Standard is fine and can hit 98%ish of the damage a "perfect" non-standard BLM has (non-standard pushed to that degree has an element of risk, too, since mistakes can be quite punishing).
Then there's TOP p1 and p6. Can you clear those two with standard? Yep. It just feels awful. Like, genuinely frustratingly bad. And your damage output is way lower in those two phases. When I say "have fun doing TOP p6 in DT" I don't mean it's mathematically impossible, I mean it'll feel horrid and your damage will be much lower than EW.
Fight design is extremely unkind to BLM as of late (many two minutes have bursts of movement in them- case in point, there's a Ley Lines in TOP where you get literally 3/4 gcds under it and then run around because of Wave Cannon). DT changes just make the standard rotation slightly clunkier too. So, if another fight like TOP rolls around, you're just gonna feel awful. The versatility you had to tackle that type of mechanical movement is gone. So now you just get to feel bad. Can you clear? With enough effort and attempts, anything is possible. I'll just hate myself through the journey

Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

The irony is other posters saying good luck doing x or y mechanic without non standard so.. you guys need to agree on how non mandatory it is or not. The intended design and gameplay of the job being incapable of handling such situations is a bad thing, I don't think it meant non std had to die but std had to be adjusted and if it means non std changes with it then fine imo. Why would you hamstring a job for the 1% of players who use that playstyle? BLM is not getting much consideration when they are making the fights but they obviously realise how it is now is not acceptable.

Y'all need to make up your minds if non std is mandatory or not cause you all contradict each other. If the content needs non std to complete x mechanic then guess what it's mandatory.

Simply put, in somewhere 97-99% of cases, Standard is sufficient if not ideal and in the remaining cases, non-standard is helpful if not kinda needed to deal with specific mechanics - something you see primarily in ultimates or fights with extensive movement phases. It is a fraction of content that greatly benefits of having it - this does not make it mandatory for the average joe Black Mage player and most content, contrary what players like the one I quoted seem to misunderstand.

In very short - it is not mandatory at all in most content, but it is borderline mandatory for dealing with a handful of mechanics in this game without significant DPS loss. That's the difference.