Complete MCH change…

[Mikey_R]

They do take exactly at best 10s, 1 GCD happens at 0s, 1 at 2.5s, 1 at 5s, 1 at 7.5 and 1 at 10s. A little faster if you're the fastest machinist in the west.

If you want to go that route, Flame Thrower would also get a GCD at 10s.

[Valence]

If you want to go that route, Flame Thrower would also get a GCD at 10s.

It does, it ticks for 11 ticks over 10 full seconds, with a first tick at 0 and a last tick at 10.

Or you can also compare in pps, with FT doing 80 pps and scattergun 60.

[Mikey_R]

It does, it ticks for 11 ticks over 10 full seconds, with a first tick at 0 and a last tick at 10.

Or you can also compare in pps, with FT doing 80 pps and scattergun 60.

You've missed the point, so I will explain it in a bit more detail.

By your initial comparison, you compared 5 GCDs of Scattergun to 1 cast of Flamethrower, with the consideration that the 5 casts of Scattergun only take 10 seconds total to use. This is false as you have to take into account the full GCD time, so 5 casts of Scattergun takes 12.5 seconds (at base GCD). You use the 5th at 10 seconds, but you can only cast again after 12.5. This is why I say Flamethrower should get another GCD, so that the total time for it would be 12.5 seconds, the same as scattergun spam.

So, the fair comparison is as UkcsAlias says.

To further prove the point, imagine, for a second, we wanted to take it over 20 seconds (imagine FT has no cooldown period for the sake of argument). You should be able to, in theory, take the current 10 second result and double it to get a total of 20 seconds. So, Flamethrower is cast 2 times. However, how many GCDs of Scattergun can fit into 20 seconds? At 2.5, dividing it through, you get 8 casts. However, if we take your 5 casts per 10 seconds, you would get 10 casts over 20 seconds, which isn't even remotely possible.

So, 4 casts of Scattergun equals 1 full cast of Flamethrower for a fair comparison.

[WiccaP]

While I do believe the MCH seems to be disjointed in what its kit does, I dont mind the animations. I like that Im flipping and jumping while firing a gun. I just wish its actual abilities were a bit more tied together. It feels like we have 2 kits, one for the gun and one for the tech.

[mallleable]

The only major changes I would want for MCH would be to replace the Clean Shot combo with like Blast Charge from PVP because I'm a walking cast fangirl. It would mean battery gain would have to be changed. And add some more 'funk' to the tool rotation somehow.

[Vatom]

I think everyone is veering off coarse here. I believe the main idea from OP is. MCH doesn’t satisfy the gunslinger fantasy but it does provide a MCH fantasy. So they should make a gun focused job but SE said that they won’t since we have MCH. The problem with that is MCH doesn’t do that it has a different niche it’s giving. So a solution if you don’t want two gun jobs is remove the gun just the gun from MCH and give them something that keenly appeals to the MCH fantasy. Then give us a job that focuses on the gun fantasy

[Valence]

You're right, but that's beyond the point. I kinda wish I had the old excel spreadsheets for rotational AoE comparisons in ShB just to close the deal here tbh.

The point is, FT was barely a gain in ShB, and I doubt it's still a gain in EW, no matter the amount of targets.

[Mikey_R]

You're right, but that's beyond the point. I kinda wish I had the old excel spreadsheets for rotational AoE comparisons in ShB just to close the deal here tbh.

The point is, FT was barely a gain in ShB, and I doubt it's still a gain in EW, no matter the amount of targets.

It's still barely a gain now based off of some back of the envelope calcs.

Assume 20 seconds, which is a full 5 scattergun and 5 AC, that is a total of 1450 potency, take FT, which in those 20 seconds (along with 4 Scatterguns) is 1480 potency, before calculating in heat potential. If we extend it to 40 seconds, we double the first value to 2900 and the second one, taking into account heat gets to 2330 potency over the 40 seconds, with net 40 heat generated. So, initially, it seems for short bursts of AoE, it is strong, however, the longer the encounter goes on after FT, the more value it loses. I didn't go further than this as you have to start taking into account GCDs used up by Bioblaster and Chainsaw (which I should have considered before, but I don't think in this case it would change anything).

As a small aside, here is the potency per second of each action: Flamethrower is 880 potency over 10 seconds, so 88 potency per second. Scattergun is 150 potency over 2.5 seconds or 60 pps and finally, Auto Crossbow, 140 potency over 1.5 seconds is 93.33.. pps.

So, you want to get as many Auto Crossbows out as possible, which is why FT starts to fall off. As one final comparison, Take FT and the highest potency over 10 seconds (5 AC and a Scattergun), Flamethrower only beats it by 30 potency. 880 for FT, 850 for AC+SG and for completeness, SC is only 700 potency.

Now, I know this isn't a comprehensive guide, however, it is mainly just for quick and dirty maths. Initial thoughts are that getting more ACs out is more beneficial than FT in the long run. You could, in theory, run the calcs and find out exactly when FT is a gain, ie, how long does an encounter have to last for it to be worth it, but nothing lasts longer than 60 seconds in endgame dungeons currently.

[Valence]

It's still barely a gain now based off of some back of the envelope calcs.

Assume 20 seconds, which is a full 5 scattergun and 5 AC, that is a total of 1450 potency, take FT, which in those 20 seconds (along with 4 Scatterguns) is 1480 potency, before calculating in heat potential. If we extend it to 40 seconds, we double the first value to 2900 and the second one, taking into account heat gets to 2330 potency over the 40 seconds, with net 40 heat generated. So, initially, it seems for short bursts of AoE, it is strong, however, the longer the encounter goes on after FT, the more value it loses. I didn't go further than this as you have to start taking into account GCDs used up by Bioblaster and Chainsaw (which I should have considered before, but I don't think in this case it would change anything).

As a small aside, here is the potency per second of each action: Flamethrower is 880 potency over 10 seconds, so 88 potency per second. Scattergun is 150 potency over 2.5 seconds or 60 pps and finally, Auto Crossbow, 140 potency over 1.5 seconds is 93.33.. pps.

So, you want to get as many Auto Crossbows out as possible, which is why FT starts to fall off. As one final comparison, Take FT and the highest potency over 10 seconds (5 AC and a Scattergun), Flamethrower only beats it by 30 potency. 880 for FT, 850 for AC+SG and for completeness, SC is only 700 potency.

Now, I know this isn't a comprehensive guide, however, it is mainly just for quick and dirty maths. Initial thoughts are that getting more ACs out is more beneficial than FT in the long run. You could, in theory, run the calcs and find out exactly when FT is a gain, ie, how long does an encounter have to last for it to be worth it, but nothing lasts longer than 60 seconds in endgame dungeons currently.

That's napkin math at best and it doesnt take into account many variables as well as the sample timeframe is too short. There is no way it's a gain because it was more or less equal already with the no FT standard AoE rotation back then, and nothing has changed on FT while scattergun got introduced.

Edit: here is more serious calculation (ShB data), not made by me ( I also had a graph but I guess I lost it for good.): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=909901952
As you can see it's barely a gain on a low amount of targets, where using FT had niche uses being triggered at the proper time when facing 2 or 3 targets at most especially with little uptime.
With EW scattergun, it's obviously gonna be even worse.

[seolhyun]

mch has gone so far away from the gun theme my only hope is that it opens the possibility of a dual pistol gunner class in the future.