Thread: Sage 7.0 Preliminary Feedback

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

As for the Gunbreaker model and weaker heals... I think the key factor should be in utility provided. Basically I think every healer should have some unique form of utility that is "theirs." Scholar already has this in expedient, giving you a way to increase the party's room for error when addressing certain types of mechanics. Astrologian also kinda has this with Macrocosmos. While it is a heal, it has the unique quality of being able to bypass Infirmity debuffs. Unfortunately we only saw this matter in exactly one fight, P3S. But I think if infirmity were more commonly utilized, a healer who can bypass that for heal checks is a form of utility. Though truthfully, I feel this type of utility makes more sense on White Mage. If I had it my way, infirmity heal checks would be common, and White Mage can pierce it. As for what I'd give to Astrologian in that case, I really like the idea of Float: a party-wide buff that makes everyone immune to puddle and floor damage. This is also not as commonly needed since many fights don't have these, but if they were more common, this could be a really unique way of letting the party position themselves effectively when dealing with certain mechanics.

Mmm I don't disagree, but my outlook on healer is more... "they can all heal but do so differently". While the differing utility is nice, as you've mention we barely have fights where they would shine so while nice, I don't think it should be what we're aiming for.

To best explain it, lets use your Macrocosmos example. I don't see it as a utility to bypass a heal check. I see it more as AST is able to heal this better than the other healers in this situation due to how their heal works. And thus, I'd like the other healers to have something similar. (Further, rather than a compile heal I'd like for Macro to be more of a Rewind and perhaps give the compile aspect to WHM's Lily Bell but that gets really messy and diverts from the point).

That said, I do think it'd be nice for us to bring utility like Expedient.

Tangent aside, I agree that SGE could still not bring anything other than DPS. They don't need a party buff (a la Divination/Chain - PLEASE KEEP AOE KARDIA) and I can't say I'd like them to be the supportive healer. That fits WHM and AST a bit more (with SCH also being a bit more damage oriented but not quite as much as SGE).

/shrug

MP idea is above my head. Its something I'd have to play with and may require tweaks depending upon how MP heavy SGE is. Or healers for that matter (cause I assume most of these abilities would cost MP and not CD only which would be a nice change, mana management). And having unique ways of doing so - like Addersgall into MP or Ewer back (SE >> Do it). Perhaps something interesting for Thin Air for WHM and SCH is... above my paygrade. Just something different to SGE (unless it can stay the same, maybe something with Fae Gauge?).

Anyroad, these ideas are a start to a better SGE and hopefully we get that with 8.0.

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

My friend in Hydaelyn. Gunbreaker does not have an "aggressive" playstyle.

An aggressive tank would have its ability to protect other party members depend on it's ability to hold aggro and deal damage. PLD's auto-attacks feeding into Oath feeding into Intervention (or Cover). DRK's MP regen attacks feeding into TBN. Those are both far more aggressive than anything in GNB's kit.

GNB is little more than a disconnected collection of damage dealing buttons and utility buttons. There's less connection than WHM's Misery, SCH's Energy Drain, and SGE's Toxicon.

I mean, fair. But it's the closest we have, and it's not that bad in the sense of having too similar a rotation to the other tanks, or no rotation at all. It has problems, but those are more because of how its resource management pans out.

Originally Posted by ASkellington

Mmm I don't disagree, but my outlook on healer is more... "they can all heal but do so differently". While the differing utility is nice, as you've mention we barely have fights where they would shine so while nice, I don't think it should be what we're aiming for.

I do agree with this as well. I think we could absolutely do more to foster a stronger identity for healing styles, but I talk about the utility aspect more because that ultimately pans into the balance of things.

For actual healing styles, I'd like to take a route like this:

White Mage: High potency pure healing with the unique mechanic "Overcure." Where their main methods of healing extend max HP based on a percentage of overhealing (based on the White Mage's max HP).

Scholar: Barrier healing based on one large, singular barrier granted at a time. Bring spells like Adloquium and Succor back into the limelight for Scholar's healing.

Astrologian: HOTs and delayed healing effects. Astro is probably the healer that accomplishes this the most effectively currently.

Sage: Layered barriers, like how Haima and Panhaima work, but granted through DPS spells. Perhaps you apply stacks with one attack, and can use a different attack to trigger those stacks as barriers, and those barriers also restore a little HP when they break.

I think there's just too much overlap being handed out and not enough focus on what healing style best suits each healer.

Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Snip

I'd like the styles tbh. Wishful thinking has me wanting SCH to be barrier based with pet healing to suppliment (not enough to where it can replace them mind you) because I still want a pet heal job but I'll take SCH being an actual barrier healer over nothing.

I think my major concern with the utility is that it relies too much on encounter design and the dev team is horrible at that.

Like a lot of the problems we currently have wouldn't have been a problem if they actually designed fights to where a class within a role can shine in differing ways. Like RDM is good in this raid for X buff, MCH is good in Y raid for X mitigation etc etc so weaknesses and strengths can mean something and blah blah blah.

Float would be nice as a utility, but I can't think of a single fight where just basic movement wouldn't invalidate it. Sure you can make the same arguement for Expedient (and I KNOW its been said already) and I'm sure it has the same problems and the fact that, while yes the party could pop sprint or just move but having the ability to have SCH or AST (or WHM) do it and plan around that is nice and all and I don't want to take that away...

With this dev team I'm personally not wanting to invest in it, if that makes sense.

I don't think I'd argue against it otherwise though.

Anyway, yes to SGE being more of the GNB or SAM or BLM of healers please. They already feel that way in PvP may as well extend it to PvE. AoE Kardia is a nice step, but we can and should have more.

Eukrasian Dyskrasia's (lol) dot is a whole other spell from Eukrasian Dosis, so they should be stackable. GNB and PLD back when Goring Blade was a dot stack without issue.