Astrologian changes feedback

[ASkellington]

Yeah Dyne was a miss but like... We wanted it gone, but not THIS. If they wanted seals to be relevant just put them on div and just add sleeve draw back...

No. Divination tied to the seals was just as stupid a system "made better" by the fact that it was a party buff over the self buff trash that Astrodyne was.

"But it was tied more to our kit". Yeah, for a whopping 4/5/6% damage difference. It was garbage then and it would be garbage if we brought it back.

I'm not happy with a Sleight of 4 cards even if they're different effects, but at least having that is going in the right direction - diverse cards. I gave them 2 expansion to make the Seals system work with maybe comboing seals doing differing effects to replace the cards but I'm not giving them a 3rd. I would rather have a tweaked SB card system back, or if I HAVE to keep this Sleight for "RNG mitigation" the LEAST you could do is make this Sleeve Draw so we have our guaranteed cards and give us back Draw for our RNG like we've been begging since you changed the class back in ShB.

...And bring back Diurnal and Nocturnal while you're at it.

[Saviin]

No. Divination tied to the seals was just as stupid a system "made better" by the fact that it was a party buff over the self buff trash that Astrodyne was.

"But it was tied more to our kit". Yeah, for a whopping 4/5/6% damage difference. It was garbage then and it would be garbage if we brought it back.

I'm not happy with a Sleight of 4 cards even if they're different effects, but at least having that is going in the right direction - diverse cards. I gave them 2 expansion to make the Seals system work with maybe comboing seals doing differing effects to replace the cards but I'm not giving them a 3rd. I would rather have a tweaked SB card system back, or if I HAVE to keep this Sleight for "RNG mitigation" the LEAST you could do is make this Sleeve Draw so we have our guaranteed cards and give us back Draw for our RNG like we've been begging since you changed the class back in ShB.

...And bring back Diurnal and Nocturnal while you're at it.

<dreamy sigh> Time Dilation.....it would be sooo nice to have that lovely little meta-magic time-based ability back again. I had so much fun extending buffs back in Stormblood.

[LynxDubh]

<dreamy sigh> Time Dilation.....it would be sooo nice to have that lovely little meta-magic time-based ability back again. I had so much fun extending buffs back in Stormblood.

Time Dilation, my beloved...

[Sani2341]

Well I for one, am currently cautiously pessimistic about the rewwork.

If there's some really nice and interesting interactions between the kit and cards that were not explained yet, that make the new cards more engaging than just "3 oGCDs on a shared cooldown" there might be Something interesting there still.

But considering SE's track record, I shall assume this is not actually the case until proven otherwise.

[ForsakenRoe]

The issue with what SE has given us here, is that the defensive and heal cards are only going to be as useful as the content they're used in demands. That is, in EX roulettes and Maps, casual content like that, where enemies can't do a damn thing vs the incredibly overtuned selfsustain of the Tanks, they're going to be completely pointless. Use them or not, doesn't matter, the enemies go from dealing 4000 damage per autoattack down to 3200, big whoop, this changes nothing when the WAR is lifestealing 16k per enemy hit, per GCD, 6s out of every 25s. So, for the vast majority of content in this game, 2/4 of the cards we draw will be 'who cares lol', and so if we look at it that way, we've gone from 6 cards per 2 minutes (4 Major Arcana, 2 Minor Arcana), to just 4 (2 damage cards, 2 of the other category that isn't 'defensive' or 'healing'). This will undoubtedly slow the gameplay of the class down, something that is antithetical to the identity of Astrologian, being the 'faster paced APM healer' since it's release in HW.

Since SE did such a weird job with the 'rework', here's my take on a rework for AST, to show how 'actually, it's not that hard to come up with an idea':

Mainly reworks to cards, not adding more damage buttons.

Benefic1 upgrades to Benefic2, as with the other healers. This means that Benefic2 would proc the 'guaranteed crit on next Benefic2' trait, helping in those panic-spamming situations. MP cost of Benefic2 is reduced to 500mp.
Helios upgrades to Aspected Helios, as with the Medica/Medica2 equivalents on WHM

Major Arcana: now autodraws one every 30s. If you have a Major Arcana drawn and the timer hits 0, you 'Spread' the second one, holding it in reserve. At this point, the timer will pause, like capping WHM Lilies.

Minor Arcana: now autodraws a Minor Arcana every 15s. If you have a Minor Arcana drawn and the timer hits 0, you 'Spread' the second one, holding it in reserve. At this point, the timer will pause, like capping WHM Lilies.

Sleeve Draw returns: A 2 charge, 60s charge time OGCD action. When you use it, your currently drawn Minor Arcana becomes a Lady of it's suit. More on Card Ranks in the Minor Arcana section.
Sleeve Draw's purpose is to be a 'bad luck prevention' system, which you can use to force the Minor Arcana you hold (preferably the ones in the burst window) to be the highest potency, so the burst window always feels satisfying to execute.

Draw, Play and Minor Arcana, are replaced with 'Play Major Arcana', 'Play Minor Arcana' and 'Sleeve Draw'. Playing Major Arcana is still OGCD, but Playing Minor Arcana are now GCD (to break up the Malefic spam). This means you can go Minor, Major, Minor Major (interspersed with Sleeve Draws as needed) in your burst window, should you be good enough to calculate ahead of the window who you need to target with each card at each step. If you need time to calculate your next move, however, you would be able to simply cast Malefic to buy yourself another 2.5s to consider the state of your cards

Now for Card effects:

Balance: 10% damage, 15s

Bole: 20% damage mitigation, 15s. Additionally, grants 3 stacks of Bole's Bulwark, causing the enemy that strikes the bearer of this buff to take 10% of that ally's Max HP as damage and consuming one stack.

Arrow: Grants 10 stacks of 'Arrow's Assault' (12 if the target is PhysRanged), increasing Autoattack rate by 400%. One stack is consumed for each Autoattack dealt under it's effect, and upon consuming all stacks, the Autoattack rate returns to normal.
Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, grants 5 stacks of Arrow's Assault, speeding up the recast time of the AST to 1.5s for the next 5 GCD attacks, and making cast times of those spells instant.

Ewer: Grants 1000mp over 15s. Additionally, if the target is a Healer, grants 3 stacks of Ewer Overflowing, causing the next 3 attacks dealt by said healer to strike a second time for 100% of the spell's potency. Additional effects are not applied. This second strike cannot crit or DHit

Spear: 10% Physical damage, 15s. Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, all magic damage dealt by the AST is instead considered physical for the duration, allowing them to benefit from this card's effect

Spire: 10% Magic damage, 15s

A Note on Minor Arcana: Knaves, Lords, Ladies are 7, 8 and 9 respectively. Due to not having a duration, these effects will last on the target until they are overwritten by another card, or KO removes them.

X of Staves: Increases the next 5 attacks dealt by the target ally by 60p. Additionally, increases the damage of the first attack dealt by target ally after this effect is applied, by 5 potency multiplied by the face value of the arcana.

X of Rings: Deals 100p in counterattack damage each time the target ally is struck, up to 3 times. Additionally, deals an additional 5 potency, multiplied by the face value of the arcana, for the first counterattack only.

X of Knives: Causes the next 6 Autoattacks to deal a second strike for 50p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes.
(if the concept of 'potency value not divisible by 5' is too much for the engine, make it 'first autoattack has bonus damage of '5 x face value'')

X of Cups: Causes the next 3 healer damage spells to cost half MP, and to strike a second time for 100p. Additional effects are not applied twice. Additionally, the first of these spells deals bonus damage equal to 5 potency, multiplied by the face value of the arcana

X of Crowns: Increases the next 5 instances of Magic damage dealt by 60p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes.
(if the concept of 'potency value not divisible by 5' is too much for the engine, make it 'first instance of magic damage has bonus damage of '5 x face value'')

X of Irons: Increases the next 5 instances of Physical damage dealt by 60p. Additionally, a bonus potency equal to the arcana face value is applied to each of these bonus strikes. Additionally, if the target of this card is the AST, the next 5 instances of magic damage are instead considered physical, allowing them to benefit from this card's effect
(if the concept of 'potency value not divisible by 5' is too much for the engine, make it 'first instance of physical damage has bonus damage of '5 x face value'')

The card effects (in terms of their damage output) have all been balanced against one another. In current Anabesios BIS, the Majors were tuned around all contributing roughly 30000 points of damage with their effect (numbers taken from several Samurai). Minor Arcana are balanced around dealing 300p, plus an additional 10-45p, based on RNG of the card and its Face Value. The one notable exception to this, which would be 'way stronger than anything else', would be Ewer and its effect of duplicating Healer spells, due to the difference between the strongest hit for SCH (Broil, 295) and SGE (Phlegma, 660). Or, if you prefer, WHM's Misery (1320). I could create some system wherein certain stronger skills consume more stacks than others to remedy this should it be such a pressing issue (eg it grants 5 stacks, Misery costs all 5 stacks, Glare and its equivalents cost 1, Phlegma costs 2, something like that)

Lastly, Minor Arcana would presumably also contribute Seals like their Major counterparts. As such, AST gameplay could revolve more around maintaining Astrodyne as a Huton style self-speed-buff, rather than the current odd 'slight buff for damage windows but it actually is a 90s effect in a 2min meta so it doesn't really fit very well'. Potencies of the Astrodyne effects would be changed to suit this, of course. I just haven't done the maths for that. Alternatively, we could just remove Astrodyne because it kinda sucks.

Even if the Minor Arcana changes I'd make are 'too complicated sounding', just leave them out, and only consider the Major Arcana part, along with keeping Draw as a manual button to press (to keep the APM we have now). Isn't that so much more 'AST' than what's been shown in the Liveletter?

[PercibelTheren]

I'm incredibly sad. I thought I was prepared for the worst but this has honestly managed to exceed my expectations. I'm an Endwalker baby. I don't remember the previous instances of the job. The current AST definitely has issues but it seems that, instead of changing them, they have somehow managed to keep the worst parts while taking away the ones I enjoyed.

I loved the super high APM. I loved how busy the job is. Fitting everything into the burst window while also healing was fun for me. That's going away. I enjoyed fishing for seals as well, though I always wished Astrodyne would have a different effect. I hated Lord/Lady, which it seems like they're keeping.

What I really, REALLY hate is that the new card system is horrible. You know what healers in this game don't need? More healing tools! We already have so many and no fight I have ever done (nothing below Ultimate, then) requires us to use our entire healing kit, not even close.

I can't even enjoy the job now before the update comes because I know what it will become. It just makes me sad. It was by far my favourite healer. I don't know what to switch to. I already wasn't sure if I'd be sticking around for Dawntrail and now I'm strongly leaning to "no".

[Ioletia]

So, personally, after watching the job trailer and seeing what the rework graphically looks like...

I like that Draw, Redraw/Undraw, and Minor Arcana are reworked into one action. I like that you get 3 cards (technically 4) every 60 seconds rather than a metered 30 second two charge card draw (with added redraw) plus the Minor Arcana. These are things that make sense to streamline the card mechanic- especially since all of the stuff attached to cards has been removed (Divination seals, royal road, astrodyne, etc). If you're going to make a mechanic more accessible then you might as well cut out the superfluous RNG. Did I like the RNG? Yes, but at the same time it A) made the class overly complicated for people who are just playing the class for the aesthetic and B) annoyed the more hardcore players by forcing them to battle the RNG gods.

I'm on the fence so far. As much as I like my little card throwing, high APM, constantly reworked and patched class... It does need to be both more accessible (mainly so I don't have to keep telling sprouts to use their cards) and also more cohesive- which, seems to be being addressed? It all boils down to what the cards actually do. If it's DPS card = 6% damage boost, Defensive card = 10% damage reduction, Heal card = 10% healing power... Yeah, that's boring. And if you're unaware, every draw will draw an "offensive, defensive, and curative card-" and that's all we really know.

I feel like this "rework" is basically Expedient... That, when it was revealed everyone clowns on it, but then it turns out really powerful once we see the actual numbers/mechanics. Basically, I'm saying, "Dear Square, don't screw this up." And I hope that they see this pushback and make the Astro more accessible, but not WHM level boring. If I wanted to play WHM... I would just install candycrush. Kthnx.

[Xelanar]

To me the new card system looks more interesting than what we currently have. In the trailer cards seem to still be random and different. At least they are different arcanas in both instances of draw and also have different outlines, which to me implies, that their effects are not always the same, but that drawing cards only guarantees the same amount of cards from each category.
Or has it been confirmed that every 60 seconds we will in fact draw the exact same 4 effects every single time, and the different aracanas and outline colors are merely decoration?

[ForsakenRoe]

Did I like the RNG? Yes, but at the same time it A) made the class overly complicated for people who are just playing the class for the aesthetic and B) annoyed the more hardcore players by forcing them to battle the RNG gods.

I feel like this "rework" is basically Expedient... That, when it was revealed everyone clowns on it, but then it turns out really powerful once we see the actual numbers/mechanics.

The point of the class is that it's a Tarot inspired class. You don't go to a Tarot reading with a couple of friends and get the same 3 cards for all 3 of you. The RNG IS AST, it's the very core of the job's identity. Removing it is tantamount to removing the job from the game.

The people who play 'only for the aesthetic' would not be playing at a high enough level for the RNG to screw them. The ones that are at a high enough level of skill to have the RNG matter, should have the skill to play around the RNG. If you're in Savage as an AST, but don't know how to play around the RNG of the cards, you probably shouldn't be in Savage on an AST, it's that simple. I don't go into Savages on a BLM, because I don't know how to play around the infamous 'BLM has to turret' gameplay style.

As for hardcore players 'battling the RNG gods', welcome to barsing. If you don't crit, you reset. If you get bad card draws, you reset. If your ally doesn't crit during your burst window (thereby making your RDPS lower), you reset. Removing RNG to cater to that kind of gameplay is a neverending path, that would lead us to such things as 'removing positionals' and 'removing crit/dhit', eventually it'd sterilize all variance out of the game.

Expedient wasn't just 'memed on, but then turned out to be powerful', it was also 'turned out to be very fun'. This new card system can cause the SAM to deal 50x damage for 15sec for all I care, that doesn't mean it's FUN. Powerful can be an aspect of what makes something 'fun', but it's not the entire package, and if it's only 'powerful' but not fun to execute, then the system's a failure

To me the new card system looks more interesting than what we currently have. In the trailer cards seem to still be random and different. At least they are different arcanas in both instances of draw and also have different outlines, which to me implies, that their effects are not always the same, but that drawing cards only guarantees the same amount of cards from each category.
Or has it been confirmed that every 60 seconds we will in fact draw the exact same 4 effects every single time, and the different aracanas and outline colors are merely decoration?

The first three cards are played, then when the second three are drawn, none of that second set of three are the same card as the first set contained. Effectively, it's going to be akin to SMN, where it has Garuda Titan Ifrit every 60s, we have 'damage card, defensive card, healing card' every 60s. It might be that, for example, Balance is 10% damage up and Spear is 15% Crit rate up, but at the end of the day, you're drawing either Balance or Spear into the 'damage slot'. As such, there'd be no variance in what you do with that card, it's always a damage related card so it always goes on the best Melee DPS you have.




As another example, let's say Bole is 20% damage mitigation, and Arrow is 20% Evasion rate or something, to make them both 'defensive cards'. Why would you ever choose to play them on something other than the Tank in a raid, and as such, why have the distinction in the first place? There's no 'decision making' to be done for that slot, the 'defensive card' slot, because regardless of the effect, it'd be best to put it on the Tank, and so you don't even need to look at the card you drew, you just play it on the Tank either way. The same applies to all three slots really, Damage slot goes on 'strongest DPS' regardless of the card, Defensive goes on Tank regardless of the card, and Healing gets held onto for the very not-often chance that it's needed to heal something that our over-bloated kit of OGCDs cannot already handle. At least that one might have some distinction/decision making (eg if one Healing card is a heal and one is a shield)

[Xelanar]

The first three cards are played, then when the second three are drawn, none of that second set of three are the same card as the first set contained. Effectively, it's going to be akin to SMN, where it has Garuda Titan Ifrit every 60s, we have 'damage card, defensive card, healing card' every 60s. It might be that, for example, Balance is 10% damage up and Spear is 15% Crit rate up, but at the end of the day, you're drawing either Balance or Spear into the 'damage slot'. As such, there'd be no variance in what you do with that card, it's always a damage related card so it always goes on the best Melee DPS you have.

As another example, let's say Bole is 20% damage mitigation, and Arrow is 20% Evasion rate or something, to make them both 'defensive cards'. Why would you ever choose to play them on something other than the Tank in a raid, and as such, why have the distinction in the first place? There's no 'decision making' to be done for that slot, the 'defensive card' slot, because regardless of the effect, it'd be best to put it on the Tank, and so you don't even need to look at the card you drew, you just play it on the Tank either way. The same applies to all three slots really, Damage slot goes on 'strongest DPS' regardless of the card, Defensive goes on Tank regardless of the card, and Healing gets held onto for the very not-often chance that it's needed to heal something that our over-bloated kit of OGCDs cannot already handle. At least that one might have some distinction/decision making (eg if one Healing card is a heal and one is a shield)

With that being confirmed, I guess I DO like the new system more and am excited to try it out.
Thanks for clarifying ^_^.

But I guess I could go more into detail as to why I prefer this over our current system.

The damage slot: basically what we currently have. Draw card, throw on DPS every 60 seconds. Nothing exciting here.
The defensive slot: can go on a tank if it helps their CD management for tank busters. Otherwise I'm keeping it as an emergency card for that ONE player who always gets hit during P12S superchains, so he won't die to successive AoEs.
The healing slot: an emergency healing, in case my co-healer dies unexpectedly. Or I just use it instead of another oGCD to have that oGCD ready for emergencies. Or I use it to solo heal mechanics to allow my co-healer to farm parses (something I personally don't care about). I'll find uses for it. I've always found uses for everything, even for the old Spire, back when TP were still a thing.

I love utility. It's useless when everything goes right. But when something goes wrong - I have lost count of how many boss kills I have saved because of "useless" utility, or because I opt to have Lightspeed for emergencies instead of using it to play cards during burst windows, when enrage is not an issue. So I guess this change just caters to me. They brought back the utility that I liked about the older card systems, even if only a little bit.

I do understand why not everyone is fond of this change though, and this problem will only get worse with every rework, considering each iteration of AST will have its fans xD.